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MDno9
Mr. EAD
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Questions about the vehicle stats
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Hi, I've been playing lately a lot my copy of F-Zero X, beating Master, Staff Ghosts...

However, I've always wanted to know exactly what the vehicle stats do; the manual seems a bit vague and maybe not exactly right, and whenever I try to research this I either get no information, or conflicting one. Note: I am more concerned about the effects to the Jumper style, since Slider is much more self-explanatory (Blood Hawk pretty much all the way).

Body: This seems self-explanatory, and we even got the exact number of HP thanks to Lord Tom. But: sources such as CGN's tier list say no other stat increases body performance, while Uchiha's pedia says higher weight makes you sturdier. I get higher weight makes you push further and get less pushed and maybe this is where this conflict lies, but I'd like to know if it actually makes you take less damage.

Boost: Not much ambiguity here, the most important stat and the more the better.

Grip: This seems highly divisive for Jumper. It should be better if increased since that means you can move around better at high boosted speeds without losing it all due to losing grip (specially useful in circuits such as Red Canyon 2 where there's not really much space to recover grip doing side attacks and you actually have to steer a bit, risking the grip lose). However, sources such as CGN's tier list say lower grip is actually better for cornering in Jumper. How so? I don't get it, and I've tested it white a bit. Does it have to do with a lower grip improving sliding performance? But sliding slows you down a LOT in Jumper, why corner like this instead of side attacking?

Weight: This is where it gets really confusing. I can notice that higher weight very slightly increased unboosted top speed and improves your collision properties as I've said before, while lower weight noticeably increases your turning speed and acceleration. However, I've also read that higher weight takes a bit longer to decelerate from a boost to its unboosted top speed and gains more speed in circuits where it gets in the air (jump plates, maybe drop offs). The real question is: is really lower weight always better? I've noticed it's a bit easier to lose grip on, say, Twin Noritta than Death Anchor, as if the higher turn speed triggers the grip lose more easily (specifically speaking in circuits such as the one I mentioned before where side attacks are not an easy option), but maybe that's just me. I've also read more confusing / conflicting data from top players, such as lower weight improving the Boost stat, the Grip stat, the length of side attacks...

And what about the settings? I've read that, besides the obvious effect on speed, towards acceleration increases cornering, sliding performance and the floating properties, while towards max speed increases unboosted top speed, decreases deceleration to unboosted top speed and... increases grip (this is bad for Jumper like I said as said by CGN; if it's true, maybe it's not as important?)

There's more stuff... People don't seem to really agree on settings for Jumper for the same circuits, I've seem from +2 to almost +6 (I recognise +7 is crap), and even regular settings for one record on White Land 2. And stuff like Uchiha's pedia: light ships have higher top unboosted speed (maybe he's referring to after doing tricks to increase natural speed besides boosting?) and more stuff.

Bottomline: I'd also just want to know just how much exactly do these stat matter. For example, from CGN's tier list (Jumper Settings: Boost > Low Weight >> Low Grip >> Body), but the more concise the better; in general, I'd just like for this game to be better researched, know everything we can (and hopefully top players sharing their findings) since it's so awesome it deserves it, don't you think? Things like the exact HP numbers that the Body stat gives are a step in the right direction; maybe other TAS players can help here? Thank in advance for all your help and data, guys, I really appreciate it.


E_Dragon
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I don't know that much exactly anymore.

About weight:

high weight increases your speedgain from dives such as DTDs and TDDs, but low weight gives you more height on jumps, which gives you more air time to built up more speed.

High weight makes your machine more languorous, which explains how low weight indirectly increases speedgain from boost and speedloss from friction.

Some other random stuff:

- The boost stat does not influence boosts gained from boost plates (they are between B and C according to Daniel)

- at speeds above 2000 km/h manual boost has no effect and boostplates even slow you down ( I heared the latter from Daniel, but he hasn't showed it to me yet)

About different settings:

It really depends on how good you are and which strat you go for.I don't know where you got your recommendations, but it really depends on if the guide is adressed for casuals which should go with more accel since they have worse turning and like to ram walls more than actual runners.

Daniels WL2 WR which uses regular settings you mentioned is a pretty good example for that.

If you are a casual or rather new and don't go for any dives then you would go for rather normal jumper settings, while if you are decent at the dives you want to have max accel to gain enough height to be able to perform them.

If you are a master at this game then you don't need all the accel to perform the dives and go more towards max speed to preserve more speed.

Also Daniel mentioned that some stuff on CGNs site to be wrong, but I don't remember exactly anymore.

I'm pretty sure other runners can clear you up on most stuff.

MDno9
Mr. EAD
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This doesn't answer much, but still thanks for taking your time.

It really seems this game's stats and physics are hard to comprehend exactly, huh? So much confusion.

E_Dragon
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Well most of this stuff is quite minimal and usually doesn't matter a lot.

JAGG_ZERO
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Sorry for the somewhat delayed response (internet playing havoc doesn't exactly help either), but I've done some testing and made some vids to help clarify some of these issues, although I didn't do vids on every single point. Brace yourself for lots-o-text and scrolling, too! Very Happy

 

"[...]I'd like to know if [higher weight] actually makes you take less damage."

Here's a basic test that I did:

The Death Anchor lasted for 1 frame longer than the Twin Noritta in this test. I also did very slight variations of the same test but they all ended with the DA lasting 1 frame longer than the TN. Under the same test, the Wonder Wasp lasted 27 frames longer than the DA and 28 frames longer than the TN. Ultimately, the answer is yes, but the amount of extra protection higher weight offers is either comically small or non-existent.

 

"[...]I've also read that higher weight takes a bit longer to decelerate from a boost to its unboosted top speed[...]"

That's purely because a heavier machine has a higher unboosted top speed than a lighter machine of the same settings. What this means is that if you were to set a lighter machine's settings closer to max speed in such a way that its unboosted top speed is identical to a heavier machine, both machines would also have an identical deceleration rate, though strangely, the lighter machine would actually have slightly better acceleration. As shown here (apologies for the somewhat basic editing and hasty transitions):

Basically, at default settings, the Twin Noritta decelerates from ~2000km/h down to ~1300km/h 5-6 frames faster than the Black Bull; if the TN and BB have the same unboosted top speed (in this case, 812km/h), they both decelerate from ~2000km/h down to 1300km/h at the same rate. In both tests, the TN accelerates faster than the BB.

It's possible that there may be different results at settings closer to max accel / max speed, but this will do for now (I may extend this test in the future).

 

"I've also read more confusing / conflicting data from top players, such as lower weight improving the Boost stat, the Grip stat, the length of side attacks..."

1) Lower weight does in fact improve the boost stat, but only a tiny bit – at default settings and while travelling at a starting speed of 769km/h, the Twin Noritta can reach 1404km/h using 6 consecutive manual boosts, while the Death Anchor can only reach 1397km/h under the same conditions.

2) It is, in fact, higher weight that increases the grip stat rather than lower weight – under default settings and turning at an angle of >44 on the analog stick while boosting, the Twin Noritta lost grip at ~981km/h while the Death Anchor reached 1028km/h...before I crashed into the inside of the corner Razz so it wasn't just you when you noticed that the TN is easier to lose grip on compared to the DA. I might have to look into this further at some point to uncover the full difference between lighter, heavier, lower grip and higher grip machines.

3) Wait, "length" of side attacks? As in duration? If so, side attacks last for the same amount of time no matter what machine/settings are used.

 

"[...]towards max speed increases unboosted top speed, decreases deceleration to unboosted top speed and... increases grip"

Actually, yes – settings closer towards max speed do in fact increase grip. You know that turning test I did with the Twin Noritta earlier where it lost grip at ~981km/h under the default settings? Well, under the same test conditions but with max acceleration settings, that number went down to ~975km/h. Under max speed settings (+7), that number increased to ~991km/h.

 

"The real question is: is really lower weight always better?"

I haven't covered everything to do with weight yet, but so far, the only 2 real advantages heavier machines have are better grip and a higher maximum unboosted top speed using +7 settings, though the former is somewhat limited in its usefulness and the latter is only really helpful if you're trying to get a good FLAP time for the jumper ladder or something. So I guess the answer to that question so far is...mostly?

 

Also, with some of the things E-Dragon mentioned...

"- The boost stat does not influence boosts gained from boost plates (they are between B and C according to Daniel)"

I was surprised when I heard of this, but it's true:

The boosts that boost-plates provide seem to be exactly C-grade. Thankfully, the only place in my Jack Cup TAS where I might need to make a change is towards the end of PT1, but the difference would be so small, I doubt I will bother Razz

Doubly thankfully, the earliest track where I probably have to worry about the boost difference may be Red Canyon 1...and I haven't even started on the RC1 TAS yet Very Happy

 

"- at speeds above 2000 km/h manual boost has no effect and boostplates even slow you down ( I heared the latter from Daniel, but he hasn't showed it to me yet)"

Boosts having no beneficial effect above 2000km/h is pretty well-established, but this is the first I heard of boost-plates slowing the machine down. This doesn't seem to be true, however (you might want to watch in slow-mo because this vid is reeeaaalllllly short):

 

That's all from me for now.

cheezit
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Spam filter ate my post, saved draft is blank. =/

Would like to see more mythbusting. I was googling machine rankings and found a lot of conflicting information, and now this shows about half of what I heard is either false or so marginal it doesn't really seem to matter much.

New-ish player here (Just beat the first 4 cups on Master). Won by eliminating Rivals while still placing top 6, which I'm guessing is what the developers intended. Used the Wonder Wasp, jumper strategy with no fancy tricks. Was cursing my very low weight and poor grip, due to the collision physics and the AI's aggressiveness at higher difficulty. I don't really see how better grip would have ruined my cornering ability so much, and it would have been very useful when getting rammed since that's significant in the lighter vehicles. Still finding it really bizzare that good grip, which was considered good to have by the game designers, is considered detrimental for any strategy by players. I get the feeling some of the "advanced" strategies which benefit from low grip weren't originally intended by the developers.

I also wonder if weight offsetting the engine curve a tick is behind the percieved effects.

The ranking I was going from was (can't link it, spam filter) crazygamenerd's machine tier list on his webpage. Hence the Wonder Wasp. Seems to penalize weight on the rankings a lot.

E_Dragon
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Good job on clearing everything up Jagg2zero !

I might have confused the boost plate above 2k thingie with it just not working, but anyways, thanks for all the testing.

CGNs machine tier list is made on his own and I don't totally agree with it.

It still kinda gives you a good view of in which range the machines are.

cheezit
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E_Dragon wrote:

CGNs machine tier list is made on his own and I don't totally agree with it.

It still kinda gives you a good view of in which range the machines are.

Well, I DO very much agree that the B-D-A ships are hard to do well with. They seem to always burn the same energy at the same rate so literally anything below an A rating is wasteful even if it has more energy with a better body score. It gets difficult to keep up more than the bump in the other stats is useful. I actually think the game would have benefitted if the boosters were actually 'BURN RATE' rating aka slow burn to fast burn along E-D-C-B-A such that an A booster is still the most useful as a quick bang but the D/E aren't literally wasteful of energy. Anything under a C really can't keep up with the AI ships past Standard difficulty.

In the meantime since my last post, I've cleared the 4 cups on Master with the B-B-C Deep Claw (well regarded craft) and C-C-A Angler (since it's poorly regarded but at least it's not a B-D-A). Just the minor bump from a D grip to a C grip regardless of the similar weight was a huge boon, and a C booster isn't THAT much of a detriment unless it's a crutch for fixing mistakes. Did way better than the Wonder Wasp on both of them. The sub-900 kg craft have some bad luck with rear collisions, but the 900-1000 do alright. Overall I found C-grip as minimally ideal, although an A grip can hold speed pretty well on a higher engine setting since I don't need to DT as much. Might try the heavier C-C-A Hyper Speeder next. Not really seeing how grip is bad for jumpers.

Also, the Death Match track is terrible for practicing DT kills. Rivals are best 1-shot DT'd while turning, that practice mode has no turns. As I found out, you can 1-shot even the Black Bull in the lightest ship while barely taking a scratch. Sticking a landing directly on top of a machine while DT'ing for a kill is pretty satisfying too.

Also I noticed: It's an allowable stat score in the general balance I see, and it's possible in the machine editor, yet there's no B-A-D machines. Heh.

Overall I'm going to say the worst ship is Mr. EAD, simply because he's one stat point short compared to other A-rank booster machines. He performs well compared to B-D-A but technically you're cheated a stat point just for a pun.

MDno9
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Sorry, I haven't seen this earlier since I've been away for a couple of days.

JAGG_ZERO, thank you so very much for your input, and I'd appreciate if you could eventually test or reveal more stuff (no rush, though, take your time), and the rest for your input, too.

By "side attack length" I mean the distance it moves you, not the time. Sorry for not making that clear enough.

But yeah, probably the most suspicious stuff is how grip is "supposed" to be bad for Jumper. Maybe not so relevant with high skill, but to even say it's detrimental?

Also I'd like to add something I've noticed a lot playing Grand Prix: if you get bumped by enemy machines (I haven't tested with any particular grip or weight, just something I've noticed in general), you lose your grip even if you're just at unboosted speed. If the grip stat decreases this effect or makes it harder to occur, then heavier machines would have this edge in close multiplayer matches (I like to play this game with 4 players, yes).

I wouldn't think Mr. EAD's Great Star is bad; it has the niche of being the heaviest machine with A boost stat, so if somehow this has some advantadges it would make him quite unique. It loses a point in the less noticeable stat compared to the EAC ones, too. It's pretty damn fast; I like it.

JAGG_ZERO
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Initially, I was going to do another round of testing on several things, but first, I'd like to solely expand on a particular test I did last time.

Before, I established that if a light machine and a heavy machine have their settings adjusted so that their unboosted top speed is identical, the light machine will accelerate faster than the heavy machine, thus (supposedly) making the heavier machine the inferior one. Here's the thing, though: I only tested this at neutral / near-neutral settings. I was aware of this and even said "It's possible that there may be different results at settings closer to max accel / max speed[...]" and "I may extend this test in the future". Well, A) It turns out there are different results at different settings, and B) Here's the extended test. Now with a slightly re-designed test track and approx. 300% cleaner (but not necessarily better) video editing Razz (Note: Nothing really changes in the first 1:15 of the vid so you can skip ahead if you like)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fV5qWIq0V0

For each test, I took note of what time and speed both machines were at when they were just 1 frame away from hitting the jump-plate. For the sake of time (I say as I write a great wall of text) and also the fact that I can't easily preview my vid before I render and compress it, I cut to the next clip fairly shortly after both machines hit the jump-plate, so if you want to study the results in more depth as you watch, you'll have to do a lot of pausing, I'm afraid.

What I ultimately found is that, from max acceleration to neutral settings, the Twin Noritta always leads the Black Bull by about the same amount of time (~0"07), but during the mid-high jumper settings, the BB starts to gain ground and eventually out-accelerates the TN. This is because acceleration gets exponentially worse the closer the settings get to +7...which is bad for the TN since it always needs a higher max speed setting than the BB to match its unboosted top speed, so while both machines would lose a massive amount of acceleration as they both got closer to +7 settings, the TN's acceleration rate would end up crashing a lot sooner than the BB's.

The point in the test where the Black Bull and Twin Noritta had near-equal acceleration is when their unboosted top speed was 878km/h. In terms of settings, this is a bit above +4 for the BB and a slightly larger bit below +5 for the TN. So...I guess the general rule now is that when using jumper settings that are equal to or greater than +5 (using the Twin Noritta as the baseline), use a heavy machine; for all other settings, use a light machine. Of course, there may be exceptions to this since there are other factors that can be taken into account (grip, turning speed, plain old favouritism etc.).

There are 2 particularly notable things that came out of this test:

1) I sooooooo chose the wrong machine for my Silence TAS D: (Not feeling like redoing Silence again anytime soon. Not gonna. Nope.)

2) As pointed out earlier, the Great Star is the worst machine purely in terms of total stat count. However, also as pointed out earlier, it is the heaviest A-boosting machine...which means that the Great Star could very well be the fastest jumper machine in the entire game (only on higher settings of course) Surprised

(...or if an extra 350kg turns out to be more valuable than a single boost stat point, I suppose Crazy Bear is in with a decent shot...hrmmm...)

So, yeah, that's it for now. Later on (whenever that may be), I may try to cover a few more things if I can.

JAGG_ZERO
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Alright, here's my next (and maybe final) lot of research, this time issues are now orgainsed by category. Again, vids for some but not all points, giant walls'o'text ahead yadda yadda etc. Summary of everything between all of my posts at the end.

Grip:

1) CGN said higher grip "reduces the cornering ability", meaning that "it's always better to use a machine with a low grip rating". This applies to both jumper and slider settings.

I figured that the best way to test this was to run both the Sonic Phantom (D-grip, 1010kg) and Super Piranha (B-grip, also 1010kg) through some identical scenarios using the same inputs and timings and seeing if there were any (positive/negative) differences. Both machines used neutral settings throughout all tests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtto95c_s9o

The first 3 clips tested low-speed cornering with alternating corners; moderate-speed cornering while boosting/not boosting; and high-speed cornering while pushing the Sonic Phantom to its absolute limit grip-wise respectively. No differences in any of them.

The last 2 clips both tested DT cornering. On Big Hand, both machines started turning first, then started DTing; while on Red Canyon, both machines started DTing first, then started turning. In both tests, the Sonic Phantom turned sharper than the Super Piranha and also gained a negligable amount of speed coming out of the turn.

Well, even though low grip machines can DT turn sharper than high grip machines, at least high grip machines can make it around more corners without having to resort to DTing Razz

2) Does higher grip decrease the chances/effect of losing grip from coming into rough contact with other machines?

This was pretty hard to test – the only thing I could decisively find is that higher grip decreases the distance you get pushed from horizontal contact by a tiny, probably insignificant amount.

Weight:

1) Do heavier machines gain more speed in circuits with jump plates and some drop offs?

I did a basic jump-plate test with the Twin Noritta and Black Bull, where I had both machines share the same top speed (812km/h) and made them both hit the same jump-plate at the same speed, angle and time. I measured things like when and where they landed, how fast they were both traveling afterwards etc. but all of the values were exactly the same. If the TN and BB shared the same settings, the BB would gain more speed from jump-plates, but only because of the natural top speed increase that comes with being heavy.

2) Does low weight improve the distance side attacks moves you / makes DT turning sharper?

Yes. Just like in the low grip VS high grip test I did earlier, lighter machines DT turn sharper than heavier machines. This is most likely because heavier machines have more grip which, as I just established, makes their DT turning worse. Another possible reason is that lighter machines turn sharper/quicker than heavier machines while turning normally, so the benefit could have leaked into DT turning as well.

Settings...and also weight...(mostly weight tbh):

In my first post, I said that both higher settings and more weight increase grip and vice versa. I didn't look into it much the first time around, so this time, I did some more thorough testing. Graphs 'n' maths ahead (and fair warning: I haven't done much of either for a while Razz ).

For the settings test, I took the lightest and heaviest E-A grip machines (just in case weight and/or grip messed with the results), went through -7 to +7 settings in 1 tick increments on all of them and measured the approx. highest amount of speed each machine can travel at while turning as hard to the left or right as possible without breaking grip. Here are the results in graph form:

Yep, you're reading that graph right – all of the heavy machines scored higher than the light machines. Even the Crazy Bear can reach a higher speed before losing grip than the Space Angler despite the former having the statistically "worst" grip in the game and the latter having the "best" grip. To prove that I haven't wildly miscalculated or completely lost the plot, here's a comparison vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLhrSTdA4Cg

Anyway, from the graph, I calculated that the average amount of km/h gained per +1 tick ranges from 1.07km/h per tick for lighter machines and up to 1.29km/h per tick for heavier machines. In order to give these numbers some context, I went to find out how much km/h is gained per +1 grip point. Unfortunately, that number also varies depending on weight, and using regular machines to figure that number out ended up being a bit of a mathematical nightmare. So I got some A-E grip custom machines weighing from 780kg to 2220kg in 240kg increments, ran them through the same grip test (all at neutral settings this time) and noted the speed difference between each grip level in every weight class. Here's the table:

So the km/h gained per +1 grip point ranges from 29km/h-34km/h, meaning that the average amount of grip gained per +1 tick is ~1/26-1/27 of a grip point, or a bit over ~1/2 of a grip point per +14 ticks (-7 to +7 settings). Not too bad...I s'ppose. Weight is where it's at, though. Here's the same custom machine test, but graphed out:

Taking an example from this graph, a D-grip machine weighing 780kg loses grip at 855km/h. According to the graph, an E-grip machine weighing 1130kg would lose grip at the same speed (just to be extra sure, I tested this with a 1130kg E-grip machine and the results line up with the graph perfectly). The weight difference between the 2 machines is 350kg, so in this case, adding 350kg to the E-grip machine had the same effect as increasing the grip stat by 1.

However, it's not as simple as +350kg = +1 grip point across the board because the amount of weight that would equal a grip point decreases as the grip levels gets higher and the machines get heavier. Taking another example from the other extreme, a B-grip machine weighing 2220kg loses grip at 1063km/h. An A-grip machine weighing ~1940kg loses grip at the same speed. The weight difference this time is 280kg.

So this means that adding 280-350kg to the machine's weight has the same effect as increasing the grip stat by 1 and vice versa. For better of for worse, weight doesn't seem to affect how well a machine can slide. Well, not that I've tested, but somehow I don't think I need to Smile

(Wow this part had more words in it than I wanted.)

Summary:

Here's a summary of everything uncovered between all of my posts sorted by category (everything else that's already well-established isn't being covered).

Boost:
  • Boost-plates always give a C boost regardless of the machine's boost stat.
Grip:
  • Machines with low grip DT turn sharper than machines with high grip.
  • Higher grip makes you get knocked around less when attacked by other machines, but the difference it makes, while somewhat tangible, is also tiny Neutral
Low weight advantages:
  • Better acceleration from max-accel to mid-jumper settings, even when the settings are adjusted so that a lighter machine's unboosted top speed is identical to a heavier machine.
  • Sharper DT turning.
High weight advantages:
  • Better acceleration at mid-jumper settings or higher, even when the settings are adjusted so that a heavier machine's unboosted top speed is identical to a lighter machine.
  • Higher unboosted top speed at +7 settings (not sure if this counts as already established and/or significant, but I'm including it anyway Razz ).
  • Higher grip. To be more precise, +280-350kg = +1 grip point. (Note: Doesn't affect sliding ability; heavy E-grip machines can still slide just as well as light E-grip machines and all A-grip machines slide like complete dogshit.)
Settings:
  • On average, +1 tick increases grip by ~1/27 of a grip point (the difference between -7 and +7 settings is ~1/2 of a grip point). This stacks with the high weight's grip advantage.
Other things that either have very little or no influnce:
  • Boosting while travelling over 2000km/h (PAL/NTSC) has no negative effect.
  • Lower weight seemingly increases the boost stat...but the extra speed you get per -840kg is <2km/h per boost, and that's a generous over-estimation. This is also assuming that the lighter machine's better acceleration didn't influence the outcome in any way.
  • Higher weight seemingly increases the body stat...by a tiny 1/28 of a body point per +840kg, or ~1/235 of a body point per +100kg. This is assuming that my testing was 100% flawless, but there was at least 1 frame in my video test where both machines were not displaying the same speed despite some precautions I took to stop such a thing from happening, so part/all of this extra 1/28 body strength per +840kg could be down to a margin of error.
  • Weight has no direct influence on deceleration. Key word being "direct".

That's all, folks! (...unless something else comes up or if I forgot something)

WMJ
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This is an extremely nice overview of most of the impacts the stats have on ship performance. Considering how marginal the impact of many of this stuff is, it’s no wonder it has remained somewhat unclear until recently.

One thing I would like to note is that the key reason lower weight is almost always better is the ships floating ability. The floating ability is directly linked to the acceleration your ship has. This is most notable in the settings when max acceleration allows you to float much higher and longer than max speed settings. Lower weight also brings faster acceleration so that adds to the equation.

The ships deceleration in the air is much lower if the acceleration is higher (either due to low ship weight, settings or both). This is why a ship like Twin Noritta at max acceleration settings is the best ship of choice for a track like Big Blue where you spend most of the track in the air. You can gain height quicker with the Twin Noritta compared to any other ship + you decelerate slower in the air. This is also the main reason why Blood Hawk is almost always better than Night Thunder. Despite the above mentioned low weight vs. high weight advantages it is mainly the ability of Blood Hawk to gain height faster and keep more speed floating that makes it overall faster than Night Thunder. Especially in situations where the amount of height you can gain for a dive setup is limited the Blood Hawk allows for faster dives due to increased height during setup and shorter dive setup times.

There are still a few things unclear to me. Some are myths that I have never been able to properly verify.

- C body is the fastest. This is something Daniel told me. This is the reason he chose a CAC stats custom ship for his Silence 3 WR run after finding it had a stronger acceleration and slower deceleration too after the dive on S3. Personally, I can’t find any difference but maybe I’m missing something? Possibly it impacts boost?

- Heavy weight ships can pick up more speed when sliding. I guess it’s not true with the previous findings?

- Does weight allow for slower deceleration when turning normally? Every turning move, no matter how small, makes the ship decelerate to some extent. Considering the extra grip weight brings in, does this have an impact?

- Does weight influence deceleration going up steep slopes or looping’s compared to flat road?

- Does weight impact DTD ability? I have heard claims that higher weight allows for faster dives but I never found any noticeable difference. It’s hard to setup identical DTD’s to really verify this so I’m not sure. If there is a difference it’s likely marginal.

- In the jumpplate test for impact of weight on diving speed, did you use the optimal way to take on jumpplates? The best way is to hold fully up on the control stick for the moment you hit the plate and then after 2 – 3 frames release the control stick to neutral position for the duration of the dive. This allows you to both accelerate fast and take a longer diving distance than if you would hold up halfway during the jump. This might have an impact on the findings. I’ve always thought Red Gazelle was the better jumper ship choice on tracks with jumpplates for simple strats.

I know some more myths but they’re not related to machine stats so I’ll leave it at this for now.

 

JAGG_ZERO
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WMJ wrote:

- C body is the fastest. This is something Daniel told me. This is the reason he chose a CAC stats custom ship for his Silence 3 WR run after finding it had a stronger acceleration and slower deceleration too after the dive on S3. Personally, I can’t find any difference but maybe I’m missing something? Possibly it impacts boost?

 

I tested this by creating a rough demo TAS using a 780kg EAE machine, then I replayed the input file while swapping the EAE machine to a CAE, then an AAE machine. The idea being that if there are any performance differences at all due to the body rating, the TAS will desync at some point while testing the other machines. Video:

All 3 machines ran exactly the same using the same input file so it's safe to say that body only affects damage taken and not performance.

WMJ wrote:

- Heavy weight ships can pick up more speed when sliding. I guess it’s not true with the previous findings?

 

Surprisingly, heavier machines do in fact pick up more speed from sliding because of their weight and not because of a natural top speed increase. Here's a basic sliding test that I did (best watched in slow-mo) :

It's a little hard to get all of the machines to have the same starting speed, starting position, sliding angle and point where they crash into the wall at the end of the test, but even with those slight inaccuracies, CB gained ~9-10km/h more from that slide than BH during both tests (equal settings and equal top speed).

WMJ wrote:

- Does weight allow for slower deceleration when turning normally? Every turning move, no matter how small, makes the ship decelerate to some extent. Considering the extra grip weight brings in, does this have an impact?

 

With equal unboosted top speed, a heavier machine does decelerate a bit slower from turning than a lighter machine. However, this is most likely due to the fact that heavier machines don't turn as sharp as lighter machines, so less turning = less speed lost from turning.

WMJ wrote:

- Does weight influence deceleration going up steep slopes or looping’s compared to flat road?

 

No. Just like when decelerating on a flat road, heavy and light machines decelerate at the same rate going up a slope when they share the same top speed.

WMJ wrote:

- Does weight impact DTD ability? I have heard claims that higher weight allows for faster dives but I never found any noticeable difference. It’s hard to setup identical DTD’s to really verify this so I’m not sure. If there is a difference it’s likely marginal.

 

This is hard to test properly without accidentally bringing in some other factor or failing to take something into account that tampers with the final results. I can't guarentee something like that didn't happen with my testing, so definitely take the results of the following vid with a fair few grains of salt (again, watch this one in slow-mo) :

Blood Hawk seems to be the victor here, reaching 3000km/h 2 frames quicker than Crazy Bear. BH also landed further to the left than CB which I guess makes sense due to the fact that lighter machines turn/DT turn sharper than heavier machines and the DTD used in the test was a DTD-Z, so weight seems to also affect trajectory.

WMJ wrote:

- In the jumpplate test for impact of weight on diving speed, did you use the optimal way to take on jumpplates? The best way is to hold fully up on the control stick for the moment you hit the plate and then after 2 – 3 frames release the control stick to neutral position for the duration of the dive. This allows you to both accelerate fast and take a longer diving distance than if you would hold up halfway during the jump. This might have an impact on the findings. I’ve always thought Red Gazelle was the better jumper ship choice on tracks with jumpplates for simple strats.

 

I...don't remember. I didn't save the test either so I can't check. Just to be certain, I redid the test making sure I used the jump-plates in the exact way you described plus I did it at higher speeds so that any differences are more magnified (before, I only tested at <1000km/h...that much I do remember) :

It seems to be one of those things where the difference is so small that there might as well be no difference at all.

WMJ
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These are some seriously interesting findings. Thanks for being able to test these so soon already. Especially the sliding test for heavy machines is very convincing. Also makes sense that light ships are able to pick up more speeds from DTD’s faster due to the sharper turning angle. This would mean that for the majority of tracks where the Blood Hawk is used in combination with DTD’s that remains clearly the best choice.

Please correct me if I’m wrong on this. As I understand now, the only factor determining deceleration is unboosted top speed. In practice this means that for slider settings at full acceleration the heavier ships will have a higher unboosted top speed and corresponding slower deceleration. I guess this will only really be noticeable at speed just above the unboosted top speeds.

It also really makes me think about some of the ship choices the world records in the game have used for years. For instance, on a pure sliding track such as Big Hand I imagine heavier ships will really outperform the Blood Hawk. Maybe Crazy Bear is even the fastest choice there or perhaps Night Thunder? Surely the acceleration at the start of the race is slower but I imagine you more than make up for that by gaining just a bit more speed for every slide in the race and the higher unboosted top speed.

Also after a lot of testing I found the optimal setting for Mute City 1 jumper to be exactly +5 for Twin Noritta. This is just around the limit where the Red Gazelle or Death Anchor may be faster in the end with settings a bit closer towards acceleration to allow for the same unboosted top speed. I guess the difference is so small that it doesn’t really matter but perhaps Death Anchor is the best car for Mute City 1 jumper after all.

JAGG_ZERO
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As far as I know, the base deceleration rate is solely determined by unboosted top speed, yes.

While it's possible heavier machines could be a little bit faster on pure sliding tracks due to slightly increased speed gained from slides which could make up for a slower start, I actually have some doubts about that that. For now this is more of a theory until it gets proven/disproven so don't take it as an absolute fact or anything. Razz

From the way I see it, a slide can be separated into 3 stages: The preperation - going from driving in a straight line to sliding; the slide itself - self-explanitory; and going back from a slide to driving in a straight line. When transitioning from driving to sliding or vice versa, you lose a bit of speed in the process. The thing about heavier machines is that it takes longer to transition between sliding and driving due to slower turning, which means that heavier machines stay in the transitioning stages for longer, which means they're in a state where they lose speed for longer than lighter machines. The amount of speed lost (if any) compared to lighter machines wouldn't be much, but similar could be said for the amount of extra speed heavier machines gain from the slide itself.

Anyway, I think the best (but most time-consuming) way to find out if Night Thunder is better than Blood Hawk on pure sliding tracks is to have 2 equally very highly optimised TASes on a track like DF1 with both machines. I'm not too keen on trying that anytime soon, but if I get tired of breaking almost every. single. track. with lolAGGabuse, I may just make a DF1 TAS with Night Tunder for the hell of it and compare it to Lord Tom's DF1 TAS with Blood Hawk or something Very Happy

WMJ
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Yeah those are some valid points.

I think if there is any track where heavy cars might be faster in the end with sliding it has to be Big Hand. If the sliding advantage wins out in the end you need a lot of corners to really make a significant difference. I think a good way of testing it is to use your Big Hand tutorial TAS and try to redo the opener similarly optimized with Night Thunder. That way you don’t have to redo the whole thing necessarily.  If it’s not faster you can try to look at some key points in the lap to see if you’re at least closing in on the BH run and extrapolate from that. If not then I think it’s safe to say that light weight cars have the advantage anyway due to better slide setups.

Uchiha Madao
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 so, by reading these latest posts, heavy machines weren't as disadvantaged as we thought?

so that means JKT didn't handicap himself as hard as we all thought back in the day...

"Patience is useful in any moment"
JAGG_ZERO
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Yeah, Night Thunder (and JKT) were not anywhere near as disadvantaged as previously thought. Not just that, but it's actually hard to find any noticable negative difference with Night Thunder compared to Blood Hawk...at all. Even in a TAS environment. Well, apart from the fact that NT is clearly slower off the mark compared to BH due to slightly slower acceleration but the difference is ~1 frame and could easily be made up for over 3 laps if NT turns out to be even slightly faster overall than BH.

I tried WMJ's suggestion to make a 1-lap Big Hand TAS with Night Thunder and compare it to my TAS with Blood Hawk but while my Blood Hawk TAS is fairly well-optimised (final time is 1'43"250 which is 3"962 NTSC faster than the WR), it's not 100% perfectly optimised. It turns out that because of this, it was too difficult to tell if any improvements I make with Night Thunder are due to slight differences in optimisation (most likely the case now that I look at it) or due to Night Thunder itself. While I couldn't tell which machine is faster from that, I could at least tell that the performance differences that I'm looking for are very, very small.

So I gave up on that and then I started comparing a part of the first lap of Lord Tom's PT1 TAS to my PT1 TAS since both of our TASes are very highly optimised and use different machines to boot (and then facepalmed for not thinking about this sooner). For this, I noted the earliest visually markable place where our speeds were near-identical and our strats were the same to make the comparison as fair as possible.

Here, both machines are in exactly the same position and BH is 0"16 ahead, so that's going to be the baseline time difference. Not all of this 0"16 difference was due to BH's faster acceleration at the start – part of it was because I got a better boostslide that saw me 20-30km/h better off for a little while. Because of this speed advantage, I had to start the comparison part-way through the first hairpin corner.

From there, I compared BH's and CB's peak speeds from each slide to make sure that the whole heavier-machines-gain-more-speed-from-slides-than-lighter-machines thing still checks out. Ignore the time difference for now because speed is the only thing that matters for this bit.

First corner:

Second corner:

Third corner:

So CB gains more speed from the slides as expected, so it should be slowly gaining on BH at this point, right? Here's the last markable point before both runs start their boost-railslides.

Here, both machines are in exactly the same position and BH is...still 0"16 ahead. It's hard to say why CB doesn't gain any ground overall but it's probably due to the fact that CB takes slightly longer to start a slide because of its slower turning speed which would slow it down a tad. There could be other minor factors, but again, it's hard to tell. While this is a very short test that only lasts for 3 2.5 corners and straight, the fact that there's not even a tiny visible change in either direction says a lot for the overall difference in performance between heavy and light machines.

Finally, there's the Night Thunder DF1 TAS which WMJ handled this time. His run actually beat Lord Tom's run by 0"066 although he did drive on the far left side of the road during the corkscrew on the boostlaps which saved around 4 frames...or 0"066. While there were other very slight differences that may/may not have made some impact either way, it at least means that NT can solidly compete with BH on a full 3lap race on any flat track.

In the end, it's still somewhat unclear whether Blood Hawk or Night Thunder is faster on pure sliding tracks overall, even when taking into accout NT's 1 frame slower start. But if the overall difference (if it even exists) is so small that it's difficult/near-impossible to pick up on in a TAS environment, then chances are that it's reasonably safe to pick either machine for a real-time run.

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