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    Index » F-Zero SNES » F-Zero SNES out on Wii U VC (plus deciding how to allow it) Goto page 1, 2  Next
Uchiha Madao
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F-Zero SNES out on Wii U VC (plus deciding how to allow it)
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F-Zero has been released on Wii U's eShop and costs 30 cents until march 21st in both America and Europe. it is a good time to get the game as fast as possible if you have a Wii U since the game's going to get normal prices after the promotion is over.

but there's a catch with this version. those that have 3DS handhelds and have got GB VC games could see this coming but Nintendo has added the ability to make a savestate of the game while you play it. this savestate can be then loaded as many times as you want until you make a new one. this enables you to potentially have infinite retries for any of the GP mode tracks since you could make a savestate just before the track and then retry the track until you get a PR, just like how you can do in Practice mode.

the big thing here is that you could also make a savestate after a good lap and then just retry the other 4 until you get a decent one. you could basically almost TAS the game in real time by saving and reloading savestates as much as you want.

i had a brief discussion with darkeye when i was streaming FZSNES the other day and we think only the first situation should be allowed. make a savestate before a track and play the full track when attempting a PR. this makes attempting a PR in tracks like WL2 and FF a lot more tolerable since you wouldn't need to play the whole cup just to get 4-5 shots at a PR every time.

making a savestate in the middle of a race would be banned to prevent the abuse of the feature and people using the Wii U version would need to record videos of their PRs to be accepted in the ladder. the lck of a video would make it impossible to verify if the person used savestates or not.

of course, this is just preliminary and i already got a PM from edward to record a video of this feature in action, so the discussion is pretty much just starting. i'll have the video ready tomorrow and it would be good if people start discussing this here first.

here's a highlight of how i used the savestates in GP mode while playing to beat the game in expert: www.youtube.com/watch

"Patience is useful in any moment"
Mandalore
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Re: F-Zero SNES out on Wii U VC (plus deciding how to allow
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 That's a shame, I thought it'd be the same as on Wii. Doesn't seem like a lot we can do about using saves for convenient GP and fast lap attempts. Other than banning this version outright, which would suck.

The wr video requirement should safeguard the top times from savestate abuse during the run. It's the rest of the ladder I'm more worried about.

edward406
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Re: F-Zero SNES out on Wii U VC (plus deciding how to allow
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I like the idea of using restore points for GP races as well as FLAPS, but this would then require all players who submit times using the WiiU to have video proof of each time submission. This would be to ensure that restore points aren't being used wrongly.

Though as you mentioned Ben, video proof is only required for FZCBest/WR's, and this rule does not protect the overall ladder. At the moment, the only proof required from anyone who submits times to the ladder is photo proof of their times when and only when FZC staff requires it. As the rule stands, players are already able to submit times with the help of restore points without anyone knowing. Therefore I have a few suggestions for some changes that need to be made in order to maintain submission of honest times to the F-Zero SNES ladder.


1) If anyone wants to use the WiiU VC, they must always provide full video proof (an actual recording of the whole race, not just the ending stats or Records screen).

2) If players are found using the WiiU VC without full video proof, there times should be removed.

3) FZC staff should hold the right to require video proof at anytime from a user under consequence of full removal of their times from the ladder. This wouldn't have to be a video where the player has to show a full recording of their time (like in rule one), but rather, they have to show clearly with a video camera that: 
   

1) their Wii or SNES is hooked up to a TV


2) the A/V cables running from the game system to the TV input


3) all their times in the records menu.


This type of proof ensures the user is not using a WiiU and that their times match what they have submitted. I do not believe photo proof could suffice for this because players could simply take photos of their times, and the photos would not be representative of the system being used. Taking a photo of a system also does not suffice because a player could easily have a WiiU hooked up in the background, even though they have a picture of a SNES or Wii in the foreground.



I understand this means someone could have times removed from the ladder simply because they cannot record a video, but this seems like the only way to protect other times in the ladder. Also, I think nearly all digital photo devices today have the ability to record videos, so I see no reason not to allow this rule to go into effect.

I also have one last suggestion for a rule.

4) If recording with the WiiU, the audio must be loud and clear for any viewers. Here is why.

I had Uchiha help me make a video. I wanted to see how easily someone could edit out the restore points on the WiiU version. I was worried the edits could be made easily unnoticeable, but it turns out they aren't (which is a good thing). I connected the videos at the exact frame the restore point started and ended. Uchiha has told me that when you renter the race, you have to repress the accelerator. Also, I noticed that between the frame when the restore point begins and ends, there is no audio. Though the audio is gone for only one frame, it is noticeable. This decrease in sound, as well as the accelerator turning off at the exact same time is an indicator that a restore point was used.

I am posting this video here as reference on how to spot these edits if someone tries to submit a bogus time in the future. There are three restore points used in the video. The edits are easy to notice. Also if you still think it is possible to make a video that is better edited. please try and do it! It is important for the community to know if these edits can be made unnoticeable, because if so, there would need to a full ban on the game. Here is the link for the original video: www.sendspace.com/file/zjgfye (Credit: Uchiha).

"It's the F-Zero spirit!" -Yazzo
Mandalore
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 Nice work with the video, that should help relieve a lot of the fears that players expressed in the #fzero channel.

Video proof is a tricky subject though. Anyone without video proof currently could just as easily have cheated with their times as new Wii U players. Forcing video proof for all Wii U times will just turn most new players away.

edward406
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BenB17 wrote:

Anyone without video proof currently could just as easily have cheated with their times as new Wii U players.

I suppose you are right about that. Maybe a simpler solution is we could have two separate ladders, one which is a ladder for players who can provide full video proof, and another for those who can't. We could allow all versions of the game for both ladders. The full video proof ladder may only have a have dozen players or so, but this solution seems best as it keeps open the welcoming appeal for new players who can't provide videos and gives assurance to current players who do verify their times, that their times are not bested by potentially bogus submissions.

Edit: Also having a full video proof ladder could finally allow for the submission of Best Opener, and Best One Boost Lap times within that ladder.

"It's the F-Zero spirit!" -Yazzo
Uchiha Madao
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for this, i think it would be more practical if there was an option in the ladder itself where the staff could certify which players have proper video proof to distinguish between people.

this would be like the proof checkbox in the mario kart pp site where only players who have proven their times have that box checked and there's different levels of proof to separate between the type of proof (this is how some of the stuff in other ladders like no-side attacks, etc. should have been handled from the start. you can then add a filter to display anyone who meets the requirements to have the video-proven ladder)

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edward406
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UchihaSasuke wrote:

for this, i think it would be more practical if there was an option in the ladder itself where the staff could certify which players have proper video proof to distinguish between people.

That would work for me.

So the consensus so far is:

-All versions of the game are allowed for the ladder (SNES, Wii VC, and WiiU VC).

-Restore points can be used for FLAPS, and Infinite Lives in GP Races.

-Restore points cannot be used in the middle of a 5-LAP or the middle of FLAP.

-A feature should be added to the ladder which distinguishes those who provide full video proof from those who don't.

 

Also, I have one last suggestion for FZC. I think FZC may as well remove the rule that says you can require photo proof from anyone on the ladder at anytime. The truth is, if someone is using a SNES, they could easily have used a Game Genie and be fudging their times with Infinite Turbos. If someone is using a WiiU VC, they can be using restore points at any time. Photo proof does not make any case that people did or didn't use these methods of cheating and thus having the requirement seems to be fruitless and in vein. If anything, I would suggest stating something like this in the rules for the ladder:

"Here at FZC, all times submiited to the ladder are submitted on a basis of honesty. We have no way to enforce all of the times submitted on the ladder (except for the #1 spot), because that then means we would require video proof for every single submission in order to ensure nobody is cheating. If you want only to compete with those who do certify their times with full video proof, their is an option on the ladder to compare yourself with those who have full video proof certified times. This is the best we can do in order to ensure integrity in the ladder while allowing anyone to compete."

 

If anyone has anything they would like to add/remove, agree/disagree with in the consensus so far, please comment.

"It's the F-Zero spirit!" -Yazzo
Uchiha Madao
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you have a point there. photo proof is pretty much useless in this day and age where photos can be manipulated so easily.

i think people could still submit photos if they want but they would no longer be enough to prove your time, at least in the higher levels (top 50 imo). recording a video is so easy that even a cam video would be enough to prove your record, provided the record can be seen and there's no tweaks to the video.

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Yazzo
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 This all sounds good to me.  I guess this also gives me an excuse to buy a WiiU.

Mandalore
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One thing to add, make sure the restore point is well ahead of the actual record attempt. It would be ashame to disallow a record if the restore point started a second into the attempt.

edward406
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Alright, we all seem to have come to an agreement on the rules so far. I have updated everything in the rules section regarding the input of this thread and the Proof for MFO Bests/WRs topic.

"It's the F-Zero spirit!" -Yazzo
WMJ
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edward406 wrote:

So the consensus so far is:

-All versions of the game are allowed for the ladder (SNES, Wii VC, and WiiU VC).

-Restore points can be used for FLAPS, and Infinite Lives in GP Races.

-Restore points cannot be used in the middle of a 5-LAP or the middle of FLAP.

-A feature should be added to the ladder which distinguishes those who provide full video proof from those who don't.

I can agree with this consensus.

Actualy I have to say I am really unhappy Nintendo decided to rerelease the game again and then include a feature like this! I guess with the small amount of active players at the moment there is no point in banning Wii-U as we should welcome as many new players as possible to keep the competition alive. It's at least very good you can't ninja in some save states and edit the video! I guess the same can't be said for all games (parts without sound or a black transition screen etc. I guess it's a bit unfair to people that have spend a lot of time playing through GP many times over to try WL2 and FF but I guess active players will only benefit from this after all Smile. Hopefully we can see some cool improvements for some of the tougher GP tracks eventually.

I haven't posted here for a while because apparently this forum only works in IE and only from my work computer :S.

edward406
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WMJ wrote:
edward406 wrote:

So the consensus so far is:

-All versions of the game are allowed for the ladder (SNES, Wii VC, and WiiU VC).

-Restore points can be used for FLAPS, and Infinite Lives in GP Races.

-Restore points cannot be used in the middle of a 5-LAP or the middle of FLAP.

-A feature should be added to the ladder which distinguishes those who provide full video proof from those who don't.

I can agree with this consensus.

Actualy I have to say I am really unhappy Nintendo decided to rerelease the game again and then include a feature like this! I guess with the small amount of active players at the moment there is no point in banning Wii-U as we should welcome as many new players as possible to keep the competition alive. It's at least very good you can't ninja in some save states and edit the video! I guess the same can't be said for all games (parts without sound or a black transition screen etc. I guess it's a bit unfair to people that have spend a lot of time playing through GP many times over to try WL2 and FF but I guess active players will only benefit from this after all Smile. Hopefully we can see some cool improvements for some of the tougher GP tracks eventually.

I haven't posted here for a while because apparently this forum only works in IE and only from my work computer :S.

Awesome, I have posted in the general forum to see if we can have the 4th element implemented into the ladder. I  can see where you are coming from about being bummed about Nintendo's decision. That was my initial reaction too.. sooo much time spent in GP races/FLAPS for me haha, and I'm sure from many other players as well. But it's definitely worth it to keep the competition as open and alive as possible.

Also, IE doing something other browsers cannot? I'd have to see it to believe it :p

"It's the F-Zero spirit!" -Yazzo
waffle42
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Re: F-Zero SNES out on Wii U VC (plus deciding how to allow
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 So just to set this straight, there is absolutely no difference between using pre-loaded Wii U savestates and emulator (say Snes9x 1.51/1.53) savestates, but the concern is that it is easier (I guess?) to splice videos? I guess I'm just wondering why we can't use emulators for the convenience, but the Wii U is totally fine - is there something I'm missing here?

edward406
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waffle42 wrote:

 So just to set this straight, there is absolutely no difference between using pre-loaded Wii U savestates and emulator (say Snes9x 1.51/1.53) savestates, but the concern is that it is easier (I guess?) to splice videos? I guess I'm just wondering why we can't use emulators for the convenience, but the Wii U is totally fine - is there something I'm missing here?

Yup, what you said is correct. It is impossible to tell when a savestate/slowdown is used in an emulator. Here is an example of a TAS. Though it's obvious based off the technique being used in the video that it is a TAS, there is no way to tell from video or sound if a savestate/slowdown has been used. Since there is no way to detect use of savestates/slowdowns on an emulator, they are not allowed.

When a save state is used on a Wii U, it freezes the game, then skips one frame and creates the savestate at the frame it has skipped to. When skipping to this next frame, the audio is also entirely skipped for one frame. This creates a noticeable cut in the sound. The B button is also reset (Needs to be let up and pushed in again for the accelerator to work). These two effects make it so any splicing of a WiiU video to be easily detected. I have a video linked above in the thread if you would like to see this effect.

 

"It's the F-Zero spirit!" -Yazzo
Mandalore
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 There's also the issue of legality, ROM hacking and probably a fair few other reasons.

Uchiha Madao
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there's also the fact that Wii U is official hardware with an official release and emulators like SNES 9x aren't. that's the best way to define it imo.

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edward406
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So I've decided to start using the SNES mini with suspend points.

I'd like to bring up another point about using game savers/ restore points I noticed. For fast laps, it is possible to set up the suspend point before the lap to maximize entry into the lap. This means the lap time starts at the last possible moment after crossing the start line. The reality is, there is no way to tell if a player intentionally sets the entry up to be optimized before the lap starts. Normally, this sort of thing is left up to chance, but with game savers/ restore points, this element of the game can be controlled, thus saving up to one frame and leaving luck out of the equation.

Personally I would be okay with allowing game savers/ restore points to maximize entry before the laps starts (I have already tried one lap on the SNES mini with maximizing lap entry, but before I post that time, I want to see what other people's perspectives are on the matter). People who do not play with game savers/ restore points may be up to a one frame disadvantage with doing fast laps, but I suspect most people in the future who plan to compete at a high level with fast laps will be doing so w/ game savers/ restore points anyways, so it can't hurt to allow this.

 

 

"It's the F-Zero spirit!" -Yazzo
zewing
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 I've been using gamesaver / snes mini for the past 2 months and I've definitely noticed that if you set up a fast lap in such a way that you hit the starting line at the same time all the time, you'll lock yourself into whatever "luck" point you end up getting.  I don't really care enough to setup for that but it does take away the luck aspect for sure.  SNES Mini and game saver are the best ways atm to time attack this game and as long as people aren't doing things they aren't suppose to do, it's only help make things more competitive

Mandalore
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 I can't see it being an issue for any other than the select few people challenging for top ranked times. Am I right in thinking if both of you used this method for the MC1 fast lap, you'd both have 22"24?

We already allow the save states for setup, there isn't really a way we can ban setting up perfect lap entries without banning save states outright. I'm in favour of allowing it.

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