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yoshifan
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Hidden stats of GX machines
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I started this spreadsheet sometime last year, but I don`t think I`ve formally introduced it yet. Since I just felt like cleaning it up a bit, I`ll introduce it now:

F-Zero GX - machines` hidden stats

Here`s an explanation from the Info tab of the spreadsheet:

 

As many F-Zero GX players have noticed, there is much more to GX`s machines than what the game tells you: body, boost, grip, and weight.

What is the game hiding about Fat Shark, which is claimed to have a B boost and E grip? What makes Dark Schneider so slow at max speed settings? Why is there such variety in machine handling, and even machine camera programming, like with Red Gazelle?

By running GX in a Gamecube emulator like Dolphin, and using a memory-watching program like Cheat Engine, it is possible to look into the game`s memory as it runs. With enough patience, you can find interesting memory values that are key to understanding how the game works.

This spreadsheet explores the memory values that correspond to machine-specific stats (as confirmed by testing). This is what the game hides from us: a very complex physics system with over 20 independent stats, tuned very specifically for each machine! By analyzing these stats, we may eventually be able to explain everything about F-Zero GX machines` differences.

 

Also, I just made a second spreadsheet that focuses on how to apply the stats to explain each machine`s observable performance. What affects MT speed loss rate, what affects non-boosted top speed, what makes Red Gazelle`s camera weird, and so on. Very, very incomplete for now, but I did get a start on it.

F-Zero GX - machines` hidden stats - applications

 

Figuring everything out will definitely take more time, but there is already some interesting stuff to read through here, I think.

Uchiha Madao
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good to see this posted here. hopefully it sparks interest among others to help fill it out.

with so many stats, it makes sense somewhat why the devs would not want to spend so much time tweaking each stat for every machine.

"Patience is useful in any moment"
Valyssa
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I cant help but notice that the track collision stat is really high for both Magic Seagull and Rainbow Phoenix.
A while ago I tried doing time attacks with Rainbow Phoenix trying to beat as many staff ghosts as possible and I was struggling with CTT. Basically, after the dive whenever I tried to do shift boosting the machine would just bounce a lot dropping my speed to like 600 km/h. Im assuming thats caused by the track collision stat then, because I just tried Magic Seagull at the same spots and it happens with it too. I havent really seen it on any other machines (at least not this extremely)

Naegleria
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Magic Seagull gets really good shift boosts on FFCK and GPI.  Probably because of its grip, and the width of the vehicle doesnt  have a diminishing effect on hidden shift boosts.

CosmoCortney
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 I've been checking out the hidden stats values in story mode. some interesting things can be found there:

Chapter #2
 
Body Fire Stringray
normal: 3F4CCCCD / 0.8
hard:  3F4CCCCD / 0.8
very hard: 3F4CCCCD / 0.8
 
Grip Fire Stringray
normal: 3F4CCCCD / 0.8 (regular: 0.7)
hard: 3F4CCCCD / 0.8 (regular: 0.7)
very hard: 3F4CCCCD / 0.8 (regular: 0.7)
 
Turning Fire Stringray
normal: 431B0000 / 155 (regular: 108.5)
hard: 431B0000 / 155 (regular: 108.5)
very hard: 431B0000 / 155 (regular: 108.5)
 
Acceleration Fire Stringray
normal: 3F333333 / 0.7 (regular 0.21 @ 100% max speed)
hard: 3F333333 / 0.7 (regular 0.21 @ 100% max speed)
very hard: 3F333333 / 0.7 (regular 0.21 @ 100% max speed)
 
Max Speed Fire Stringray
normal: 3F266666 / 0.65 (regular 0.4764 @ 100% max speed)
hard: 3F266666 / 0.65 (regular 0.4764 @ 100% max speed)
very hard: 3F266666 / 0.65 (regular 0.4764 @ 100% max speed)
 
Boost Duration Fire Stringray
normal: 41018106 / 8.094 (regular 8.4987)
hard: 41018106 / 8.094 (regular 8.4987)
very hard: 41018106 / 8.094 (regular 8.4987)
 
Boost Interval: Fire Stringray
normal: 3FD9999A / 1.7
hard: 3FD9999A / 1.7
very hard: 3FD9999A / 1.7
 
seems like the road crossing rocks are the only factor that changes the difficulty here.
 
 
___________________________________________
 
 
Chapter #4
 
Michael Chain's Machine: body
normal: 3F47AE14 0.78
hard: 3F47AE14 0.78
very hard: 3F47AE14 0.78 
 
Crew's Machines: body
normal: 80C6A270 0.78
hard: 3F47AE14 0.78
very hard: 3F47AE14 0.78
 
Michael Chain's Machine: grip
normal: 3EEB851F / 0.46 (regular 0.5175 @ 100% max speed)
hard: 3EEB851F / 0.46 (regular 0.5175 @ 100% max speed)
very hard: 3EEB851F / 0.46 (regular 0.5175 @ 100% max speed)
 
Crew's Machines: grip
normal: 3EEB851F / 0.46 (regular 0.5175 @ 100% max speed)
hard: 3EEB851F / 0.46 (regular 0.5175 @ 100% max speed)
very hard: 3EEB851F / 0.46 (regular 0.5175 @ 100% max speed)
 
Michael Chain's Machine: turning
normal: 43070000 / 135 (regular 94.5 @ 100% max speed)
hard: 43070000 / 135 (regular 94.5 @ 100% max speed)
very hard: 43070000 / 135 (regular 94.5 @ 100% max speed)
 
Crew's Machines: turning
normal: 43070000 / 135 (regular 94.5 @ 100% max speed)
hard: 43070000 / 135 (regular 94.5 @ 100% max speed)
very hard: 43070000 / 135 (regular 94.5 @ 100% max speed)
 
Michael Chain's Machine: acceleration
normal: 3EB851EC / 0.36 (regular 0.252 @ 100% max speed)
hard: 3EB851EC / 0.36 (regular 0.252 @ 100% max speed)
very hard: 3EB851EC / 0.36 (regular 0.252 @ 100% max speed)
 
Crew's Machines: acceleration
normal: 3EB851EC / 0.36 (regular 0.252 @ 100% max speed)
hard: 3EB851EC / 0.36 (regular 0.252 @ 100% max speed)
very hard: 3EB851EC / 0.36 (regular 0.252 @ 100% max speed)
 
Michael Chain's Machine: max speed
normal: 3DCCCCCD / 0.1 (regular @ 100% max speed 0.4456)
hard: 3DCCCCCD / 0.1 (regular @ 100% max speed 0.4456)
very hard: 3DCCCCCD / 0.1 (regular @ 100% max speed 0.4456)
 
Crew's Machines: max speed
normal: 3DCCCCCD / 0.1 (regular @ 100% max speed 0.4456)
hard: 3DCCCCCD / 0.1 (regular @ 100% max speed 0.4456)
very hard: 3DCCCCCD / 0.1 (regular @ 100% max speed 0.4456)
 
Michael Chain's Machine: boost duration
normal: 40F1AE14 / 7.5525 (regular 7.93012476)
hard: 40F1AE14 / 7.5525 (regular 7.93012476)
very hard: 40F1AE14 / 7.5525 (regular 7.93012476)
 
Crew's Machines: boost duration
normal: 40F1AE14 / 7.5525 (regular 7.93012476)
hard: 40F1AE14 / 7.5525 (regular 7.93012476)
very hard: 40F1AE14 / 7.5525 (regular 7.93012476)
 
Michael Chain's Machine: boost interval
normal: 3FE66666 / 1.8 
hard: 3FE66666 / 1.8 
very hard: 3FE66666 / 1.8
 
Crew's Machines: boost interval
normal: 3FE66666 / 1.8 
hard: 3FE66666 / 1.8 
very hard: 3FE66666 / 1.8
 
the body stats don't seem to have anything to do with the energy reservoir or resistance of the opponents
 
 
 
_____________________________________
 
 
Chapter #6
 
civil vehicle 1 
body: 3FA66666 / 1,3
grip: 3F028F5C / 0.51
turning: 43340000 / 180
acceleration: 3ECCCCCD 0.4
max speed: 3C23D70A / 0.1
boost duration: 80C69E50 / 7.581
boost interval: 3FE66666 / 1.8
weight: 44FA0000 / 2000kg
 
 
civil machine 2
body: 3F800000 / 1
grip: 40900000 / 4.5
turning: 43340000 / 180
acceleration: 3ECCCCCD 0.4
max speed: 3C23D70A / 0.01
boost duration: 40E978D5 / 7.296
boost interval: 3FD9999A / 1.7
weight: 44FA0000 / 2000kg
 
_____________________________________
 
 
Chapter #7
 
Blood Hawk
 
body
normal: 3F666666 / 0.9
hard: 3F666666 / 0.9
very hard: 3F666666 / 0.9
 
grip
normal: 3F03D70A / 0.515
hard: 3F03D70A / 0.515
very hard: 3F03D70A / 0.515
 
turning
normal: 42DC0000 / 110
hard: 42DC0000 / 110
very hard: 42DC0000 / 110
 
acceleration 
normal: 3F3D70A4 / 0.74
hard: 3F0A3D71 / 0.54
very hard: 3F0A3D71 / 0.54
 
max speed
normal: 3DCCCCCD / 0.1 
hard: 3DCCCCCD / 0.1 
very hard: 3DCCCCCD / 0.1 
 
boost duration
normal: 40F63D71 / 7.695 (regular 8.07975)
hard: 40F63D71 / 7.695 (regular 8.07975)
very hard: 40F63D71 / 7.695 (regular 8.07975)
 
boost interval
normal: 3FD9999A / 1.7
hard: 3FD9999A / 1.7
very hard: 3FD9999A / 1.7
 
 
 
Black Bull
 
body
normal: 3F333333 / 0.7
hard: 3F333333 / 0.7
very hard: 3F333333 / 0.7
 
 
grip
normal: 3F2147AE / 0.63
hard: 3F2147AE / 0.63
very hard: 3F2147AE / 0.63
 
turning
normal: 43200000 / 160
hard: 43200000 / 160
very hard: 43200000 / 160
 
acceleration
normal: 3F147AE1 / 0.58
hard: 3F147AE1 / 0.58
very hard: 3F147AE1 / 0.58
 
max speed
normal: 3EBD70A4 / 0.37
hard:  3EBD70A4 / 0.37
very hard: 3EBD70A4 / 0.37 
 
boost duration
normal: 410D5C29 / 8.835 (regular 9.27675)
hard: 410D5C29 / 8.835 (regular 9.27675)
very hard: 410D5C29 / 8.835 (regular 9.27675)
 
boost interval
normal: 3FECCCCD / 1.85
hard: 3FECCCCD / 1.85
very hard: 3FECCCCD / 1.85
yoshifan
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The CPUs in Grand Prix all seem to use a 50% accel/max speed setting, so the Story stats are probably closer to 50% as well. That's where Ch. 2 Fire Stingray's Turning 2 and Boost Duration come from.

Still some stats that stand out though. Ch. 2 Fire Stingray's 0.7 Acceleration is tied with the highest in the game at 50%, and 0.65 Max Speed is insane. Do you know if the Ch. 2 stats change when you are ahead or behind?

I remember the Body stats seemed unchanged for everything in Story; it's their starting Energy that makes the difference. Normal machines (including you) have 100 energy. Ch. 2 Fire Stingray has 10000, and Ch. 7 Black Bull has over 200 I think. (Energy is also a floating-point value you can find in memory.)

CosmoCortney
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 Yes, that's what i expected about the energy. Is there a value that defines the energy substraction of boosting?

yoshifan
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It's based on the Boost Interval stat. A boost interval of 1.7 means that one boost uses 17 energy (and it takes 1.7 seconds to do so). All machines use 10 energy per second while boosting.

Uchiha Madao
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finally, some hard proof that the CPU does cheat in story mode. no wonder Goroh is almost impossible to kill in CH2.

the crazy AI maneuvers make those stats adjustments even crazier.

"Patience is useful in any moment"
yoshifan
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Here are my notes on most of the Story CPU energy values (all except the Chapter 6 cars):

 

You and most CPUs - 100
 
Chapter 4 CPUs, Normal - 80
Chapter 4 CPUs, Hard - 100
Chapter 4 CPUs, Very Hard - 120
 
Chapter 7 Blood Hawk - 150
Chapter 7 Black Bull - 180
 
Chapter 4 Wild Boar near end, Normal - 300
Chapter 4 Wild Boar near end, Hard - 450
Chapter 4 Wild Boar near end, Very Hard - 600
 
Chapter 8 Dark Schneider - 500
 
- Comes back Practice-mode-style if retired
 
Chapter 2 Fire Stingray - 10000
 
- Can be retired if you make him fall off the cliff
 
Chapter 4 Wild Boar when not near end - 10000
 
- Wild Boar goes down to reasonable energy levels when either all of his minions have been retired, OR when you've passed the 5000m-left mark in the track.  These are the same conditions that make Wild Boar stop rubberbanding.
CosmoCortney
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 thank you for checking out this ^^
very interesting about the energy values in ch 2 and 4. 

10k of energy.. thats quite a bunch.

 

as soon as i have made all the hidden stats modifiers as ar and gecko codes i could make some codes to increase the difficulty of ch 4. that'll be fun

Razzi
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I know this is an old post, but I dicked around with your cheat engine script and made some minor observations of the three Grip values. This is obviously gonna need a lot more testing than a few hours of messing around, but here's what I found:

 

Grip 1: Seems to be a pretty simple value of grip--how well the vehicle sticks to the road before skidding. Setting this to 0 for the Rainbow Phoenix made it instantly start drifting the instant you turned at all. However it seems to interact with the other turning stats because setting it to 0 for the White Cat didn't make it skid but just act...strangely; its turning radius becomes super-tight but not much else changes (it also gains skid marks while turning but doesn't really seem to be losing grip). It also makes the steering much more twitchy; 0 for the Blue Falcon was still drivable, but making adjustments on straight roads became very iffy as it swung out from the mildest taps of the stick. Setting it to super-high (like 5 for Blue Falcon) does strangely little. Indeed, the White Cat and Wonder Wasp have such extreme Grip 1 values compared to the rest of the cars that I can't help but wonder if theirs are to balance out their odd turning stats elsewhere).

 

Also, I noticed that setting to 100% Max Speed increases this stat. Since lowering it makes the turning radius tighter, I think this is why max Acceleration makes cars turn in so tightly.

 

Grip 2: I still don't know much about this stat, but setting it to 0 for the Blue Falcon makes it slide when you QT. Maybe it determines whether or not a QT makes you turn sharply vs. slide? This definitely has an effect on QTs. I also think it may have an effect on a vehicle's ability to get grip back; setting it to 0 for the Astro Robin not only makes it slide during a QT but also makes it very difficult to get grip back once it starts skidding. Setting it VERY high can make QT's glitchy; the Gallant Star -G4 QT's, when this stat is set to 5, often goes the opposite direction than you want (like QT left makes you slightly strafe right) or simply refuses to turn whatsoever.

 

Grip 3: More iffy on this one, but this appears to denote how well the vehicle can remain stable during sudden "shocks". Setting this to 0 for the Rainbow Phoenix had zero effect on how well it handled--until it hit a wall, at which point it was nearly 100% guaranteed to start skidding. It definitely affects bounce off of walls too, because setting it to super-high values makes the vehicle almost "stick" to the wall upon impact, while setting it low makes the vehicle fly off the walls and start skidding. It also affects QT's; when set to 5 for the Astro Robin or Gallant Star -G4, their QT's became almost worthless, barely differing from normal strafe turns.

 

Later I want to test which of the grip values determines a vehicle's ability to remain stable while undergoing elevation changes (just look at how most vehicles start sliding at the beginning of CPDB if they're coming in super-fast.). Or maybe it's determined by something else. Regardless, dicking around with the values has been super fun so I hope to keep doing it.

yoshifan
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The Grip stats were confusing me as well, since I was having trouble unifying what I observed when setting the stats high, and setting the stats low (not to mention what I observed with different machines). So it's great to see this, I definitely appreciate help on figuring these out.

Razzi
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You're welcome. It's astonishing how in-depth this physics engine is. Each stat plays off several others, and changing one can have different effects depending on the machine in question. After reading your charts I got the idea to theorycraft (no code, just the variables and what they'd do) my own F-zero-like physics engine, so in order to better understanding what kinds of variables were involved I've been spending hours just messing around with your CE scripts, to get a feel for how this engine works.

 

thevorace
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This is mostly what I based my tier lists on. Plus looking at this gets me so pumped! XD

Razzi
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I posted these improved descriptions of the grip stats on Gfaqs a while back, but I haven't here. So here you go:

Grip 1 is a general stat of grip. The lower it goes, the easier it is to skid.

Grip 2 determines what happens when you skid. The lower it gets, the more the machine turns in while skidding and the harder it is to countersteer (at super-low values it'll turn completely sideways even if you don't touch the stick at all and it's near-impossible to countersteer).

Grip 3 measures wall impacts. The lower it gets, the more the machine bounces off of walls and the more likely it is to skid after bouncing.

The stats are completely linear; i.e negative numbers are simply treated as "worse" than 0.

Moving on from that: I can understand pretty much what every stat does except Turn Tension. My testing shows that it does something with the overall turning radius of the ship, but besides that it feels strange. At super-high values, it seems to widen the turning radius heavily (as far as I can remember) but at the normal values...I dunno. Maybe it contributes to the slightly stiff feeling of the Death Anchor and Sonic Phantom.

I find the fact that weight affects max speed odd. Logically you would guess that weight would negatively impact speed, but F-Zero is just weird like that. I also think that Accel having a heavy affect on boosting odd too.
 

I had posted a long tangent about the variables I would use for an FZGX-like physics engine, inspired by the ones you've recorded in GX. I cut it out from here due to it not being terribly on-topic and looking like I was hijacking your thread, but I posted it on GameFAQS if you want to look at it:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/560617-f-zero-gx/71387805?page=1

 

It's two posts, starting from #20 on the bottom of page 1.

 

yoshifan
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Yeah, I hadn't seen that grip stat summary, so thanks for re-posting it here. I did some more experimenting in Dolphin today, and I think those descriptions of Grip 1 and Grip 2 are pretty much spot on. Grip 3 seems to have more going on though; it had a big effect on quick turns and MTS from what I tried (mainly Black Bull and Mighty Hurricane). Generally, when I bump up low-Grip-3 machines, they don't make skid marks as much on quick turns; and when I bump down high-Grip-3 machines, their MTS gets stronger.

There are some interesting experiments you can do with the Grip stats and replays. Try doing a run where you never lose grip or drift, then start the replay and change Grip 2 or 3. The replay should play perfectly. But if you lower Grip 1 enough, the replay should skid in a place where you didn't skid in the actual run. Another possibility: do a normal run of pretty much anything, even Black Bull with lots of MTSes. Play the replay and see what Grip 1 values your replay works for. One way to look at it is that each instance of grip loss in your run has a certain Grip 1 value associated with it - i.e. if your Grip 1 were value x or higher, then you wouldn't have lost grip at this particular point of the run.

 

For Turn Tension, yeah, this is probably the hardest Turn parameter to pinpoint. I thought of it as affecting how suddenly your turns start and stop, especially quick turns, and it seemed like Death Anchor and White Cat exemplified high and low values well, respectively. Note that higher weight also makes it feel like you have more Turn Tension; and Tilt parameters might affect the feel as well, so it can get confusing.

 

By the way, hope you don't mind if I link your Camera reorienting = 0 video on the spreadsheet, heh. The Grip 3 videos would be good to use too, once I get a complete description up for that stat as well.

XaikuTheMaverickHunter
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Okay, I know this topic seems to be pretty much dead, but with your chart written out, here comes the million-dollar question; how do these stats translate into actual "Grade" (A, B, C, D, E) and "Graph" stats (seen in the Garage mode under certain circumstances)? Is there some kind of special conversion formula, or perhaps, a set of formulas? Yes... this IS a huge headache waiting to happen, but the question was bound to come up sooner or later.

Razzi
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XaikuTheMaverickHunter wrote:

Okay, I know this topic seems to be pretty much dead, but with your chart written out, here comes the million-dollar question; how do these stats translate into actual "Grade" (A, B, C, D, E) and "Graph" stats (seen in the Garage mode under certain circumstances)? Is there some kind of special conversion formula, or perhaps, a set of formulas? Yes... this IS a huge headache waiting to happen, but the question was bound to come up sooner or later.

They don't. The stats were pilfered from F-Zero X and unchanged even though the game has a completely new physics engine and the vehicles were all redone. The Astro Robin has a D in boost but actually has the 9th strongest booster in the game; the Silver Rat has an A in boost despite having one of the WORST boosters out of all of the machines. The Black Bull has a A in grip yet is infamous for its extremely slippery handling and complete lack of traction. Bottom line: the stats are worthless. Just pick a machine and figure out how it drives through on-track experience, they're way too complex to boil down to three simple letter grades anyway.

 

However, the little graph that you see when you make a custom machine is actually pretty accurate, because the game forms that graph from the raw physics variables of that particular custom machine.

AfterDawn
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yoshifan wrote:

 Chapter 4 Wild Boar near end, Normal - 300

Chapter 4 Wild Boar near end, Hard - 450
Chapter 4 Wild Boar near end, Very Hard - 600
 
Chapter 4 Wild Boar when not near end - 10000
 
- Wild Boar goes down to reasonable energy levels when either all of his minions have been retired, OR when you've passed the 5000m-left mark in the track.  These are the same conditions that make Wild Boar stop rubberbanding.

The snaking strats for Chapter 4 involve doing boosted spin attacks into Michael Chain much before his energy levels drop. Do you know exactly how the game calculates the effects of this? It can't simply be subtractive, otherwise he would instantly die if damage equal to or greater than those thresholds were applied to him by the time one of the conditions was triggered. Maybe it could be multiplicative, in the sense that X amount of damage representing Y % of his 10,000 health is then transferred over when his energy levels drop ([1-Y]*300 for Normal, by example)? Or does the possibility exist that maybe those boosted spin attacks actually have no effect and people have unknowingly been wasting their time on it for years now?

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