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    Index » F-Zero GX » Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Category Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next

Should a "Glitchless" Speed Run Category be Created?
Yes
36%
 36%  [ 4 ]
No
63%
 63%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 11

thevorace
Blue Falcon
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Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Category
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 Speed Run "Glitchless" Category Rules:

- No Momentum Throttling

- No Momentum Turbo Sliding

- No Momentum Turbo Rail Sliding

- No Snaking (Even though some computers use this)

- No Side Attacks (Unless you're doing Grand Prix, in which case, no Mid Air Side Attacks and no Side attacking with machines that gain speed from side attacks such as gallant star)

- No Shift Boosts

- Hidden Shift Boosts are still fair game, such as on Fire Field Cylinder Knot and Lightning Half Pipe

- Max Speed Only

- Broken down finishes are allowed

- Quick turning IS allowed

FYI - In no way is this category intended to oppose/offend the traditional Speed Running Stragegies. It is merely to bring a greater number of people to the F-Zero GX community and to add variety to the already robust game. I have nothing but respect to all categories of speedrunning.

I have videos of my records that I will put up as examples/goals to meet once this category is approved.

I am also busy compiling a "Glitchless" tier list that takes into account max speed, boost speed, speed retention, drift/slide speed, control, and shoulder button responsiveness/Quick Turning.

If you have any questions, concerns, suggestions or critiques then feel free to post them as responses or email me. Thank you.

E_Dragon
Fire Stingray
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speed Run Cat
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I don´t have anything against such a sort of category, but at least the rules should be 100% clear imo.

 

1. Should SAs be allowed to kill opponents ? ( if you want to do all cups )

2. How is Quick Cannon handled, because it gets speed from QTing, same goes for Space Angler ?

3. are "hidden" shiftboosts allowed (they can happen accidentially, but you can also abuse them on FFCK, GPI and LHP ) ?

( 4. If we go by what the staffghosts do, then snaking would be actually allowed, since the OSMS staff obviously snakes )

 

Also I wouldn´t recommend this category to any newcomer, as learning and mastering all those ATs is the key to get better.

thevorace
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speed Run Cat
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 E_Dragon, thank you for your input, I tried my best to clarify the parts in question via editing the original post. I should have been more clear 

originally. If anything is still confusing or incorrect, then as always, feel free to tell me.

 

I wouldn't recommend this category to a newcomer either, since this is still very difficult. I would only recommend this category to someone that has finished each chapter on very hard, and beaten each staff ghost just as I have.

yoshifan
Fire Stingray
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Cate
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This is kind of interesting to me since it gives the opportunity to bring up really old runs from 2003.

 
I have a bunch of old videos from muumu, though I only found one that doesn't seem to use MT at all. I uploaded it here:
 
 
I also have this Slim-Line Slits run:
 
 
There's probably some good stuff for Twist Road and Sonic Oval out there. I thought I remembered a Twist Road 58 with Death Anchor by either brave or muumu, but I couldn't find it after looking around a bit.
Mooninite69
Blue Falcon
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Cate
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What's the reasoning behind the "No broken finishes" rule?

thevorace
Blue Falcon
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Cate
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 Thanks, and wow. That Multiplex is insane. My best time is 2:05:558 w/Cosmic Cannon-G4 atm, and 10 seconds is huuuge! I'll have to try Shat Fart, I mean Fat Shark. Razz

thevorace
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Cate
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 It just doesn't seem intentional, or you'd expect some AI to try it. It's just not intuitive.

Mooninite69
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I'd argue that it is.  I can recall many occasions from my casual days where I'd be exhausted of boost energy on the final lap with no options to try and get ahead, other than...well, better blow up my machine and hope for the best.  It's kind of like a last ditch effort that I don't think should be disregarded.

thevorace
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 I just don't think that it was intentionally put into the game, which is why I see it as more of a Speedrun technique.

Mooninite69
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To me, the fact that you can still finish the race in the broken down state signifies they did intend that to happen, and expected people to use it.  Otherwise, your race would end as soon as your machine touched something with 0 health.

AKC12
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Cate
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 I'll be blunt. The proposed ruleset is terrible. I get you want to get more people into running this game, but there are way too many arbitrary restrictions that simply cannot be enforced without a lot of headaches. And very idea of making a new ladder just for beginners WITH serperate rules sounds fairly selfish and unnecessary to me. If the glitchless category just restricted any momenteum throttle techniques and side attacks, I still would have second thoughts, but it sounds much more legitimate (I'd argue MT shouldn't be restricted, but I'll leave that issue alone on this post). I have issues with the most of the second half of the ruleset. I'll go through them one by one

-No shift boosts... but hidden ones are

There will be players who won't join this ladder just because of this. Some new players do try to learn the advanced techniques, especially shift boosting. Both types of shift boost requires precision and a certain level of execution. And what if a player accidentally goes off the course for a moment and comes back with getting a shift boost. That has and will happen to me and other players on SOLS, CPDB, CTT, FFU and any course that has any part that has no walls. 

-No broken down finishes

Again, a pain in the butt to enforce. And this sort of thing doesn't require any special inputs or techniques, just hitting the wall right before you finish. Without MTSing, it really only saves a significant amount of time in Ordeal, which is fairly easy to do anyways. And again, especially with newer players, they can do a broken down finish by accident, which most of the time would cost their run time instead of saving time. Would you disqualify a run just because of that? Oh but you'll make an exception then? Rules in this environment can't have exceptions.

-No AX parts

Honestly it's a valid rule, but why bother? The advantages of the maximum star is negligable at lower levels of play. None of the AX body parts are OP. If players are most comfortable with any of the AX parts, then they should be allowed to set the best times they can get.

-Quick turning allowed except...

Stop right there. The moment any rule in a speedrun ladder has the word "except" is a bad rule. In my opinion, machines that can snake and cut time with it at 100% is perfectly okay with me. I consider it just one as one of the advantages for a machine to gain speed in corners and perhaps benefit from snaking at 100%. Does this mean machines like Big Fang, Hyper Speeder and Wild Boar won't be allowed to quick turn because those machine gain speed when doing so? Oh but those machines can't maintain a higher than normal snaking speed in straights. You see, nailing the specifics of this rule is a  huge mess, and the idea of banning techniques from certain machines makes no sense at all. What I'd do is not have this rule at all. If someone is suspected that someone snaked at 100%, then ask for video proof of the run.

I am not at all opposed for you to try this informally. Have a topic here where you can discuss and submit times by posting. A few people would be allowed to update a spreadsheet and post the total times and "records" in the opening post. However, I wonder how you and others would feel if players like myself decide to try this out. But this should never be an official F-Zero GX category.

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
thevorace
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Cate
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 With regards to broken down finishes, there can be no exceptions. When you mentioned accidentally breaking down but finishing, that run would simply die. Tough Luck. This form of running may not be 

the fastest or use advanced techniques but it certainly is meant to be competetive and optimized. The point is, with advanced techniques TAS

 runs are SIGNIFICANTLY better that human runs. With this catagory, the differences will be practicaly negligible if done perfectly. The purpose of "Glitchless" is not to bring casual players to speedrunning, but rather 

just to speedrun with a different set of rules

 

And as for "Hidden" shift boosts, it is simply taking the right path at the right speed at the right angle a finite number of times each lap. This helps to make courses like FFCK, more interesting. Note that on most courses Hidden Shift boosts are not even possible so it's not so much of an "exception" as a different method of attaining the same type of boost. And the only other accepted way to get a "shift boost" would be to cut corners on right angle or acute turns like in CTT and SALS, which I find acceptable only because you only go one direction - you drive off and you shift on, rather than - shift off and shift on.

That's a good point with regards to quick turning, so I think I'll have to revoke my previous edit to ban these types of vehicles. I didn't realize that they couldn't go faster on straights as well. Sorry for my poor judgment.

Ultimatley I thank you for your input and if you have any more concerns please make them apparent and I will be willing to review them. Thank You.

PS I would love it if you tried it out. As I said before this is still meant to be competetive and optimized. Glitchless is NOT meant to be a casual category. Speedrunning is meant to be difficult and to see how fast people/TAS can go.

AKC12
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But the game considers broken down finishes to be valid. This sort of rule will only serve to frustrate players. And besides, just like how you mention that you can get shift boosts on courses like Cylinder Knot if you take the right path at the right speed just a few times per lap, couldn't you also apply that logic for beneficial broken down finishes that don't use MTS/MTRSing? The thought of invalidating a run that follows every other rule just because the machine broke down is just needless. And it won't be popular if it happens to a player who gets a very good run that will take a great deal of effort to replicate.

Also it seems you want a category that makes the difference between TAS runs (that don't use advance techs) and human runs to be negligable. That simply isn't going to happen with courses like Cylinder Knot, Meteor Stream, and Cylinder Wave in this game. There are incredibly difficult to replicate shift boosts/double or triple shift boosts in those types of courses that takes TAS level of precision to get consistently. If someone in Meteor Stream gets a run that invovles  double shift boost that times him from 1300 to 2000+, and he or anyone else cannot replicate it consistently, would you allow that run? Here's an old run you should watch that shows a couple of double shift boosts and the chaining of shift boosts that is difficult to be consistent at: www.youtube.com/watch

I'm not saying I'm not against the shift boost rules, but know that those sort of cases will happen.

In short, remove no the broken down finish rule and I think the ruleset is fine. Remove the AX part restriction and it would be even better, since I personally would like to experiment with some of the exclusive body parts. But there shouldn't be a brand new ladder built in on this website for this category.

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
thevorace
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Cate
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 With regards to the broken down finishes, by the logic of "the game considers it to be valid," the same 

argument could be made for flying, snaking, shift boosting, mtsing, mtrsing, etc.

I agree that with some courses there will still be a large gap between human and TAS times but what I'm aiming for is like the muumu Multiplex video yoshifan posted. I take almost the exact same route. I believe that speedrunning is about precision and strategy.

I think the broken down rule is necessary, but I will remove the AX parts restriction since the side attack ban should be enough to prevent abuse.

AKC12
Black Bull
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Cate
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I don't know what else to say to you regarding broken down finishes. If there's enough players interested in participating in this category (myself included), there needs to be a vote on this rule, since a couple of other users have already questioned it as well.

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
thevorace
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Cate
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 How about we first poll for this category's creation, then poll for that rule once it is approved.

AKC12
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 I voted for no initially to the inital ruleset and I thought that you were petitioning to have it added as an official category, with the website implementing it. Under the condition there will be a vote on that rule, consider one of the Nos as a Yes.

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
MashedPotatoJohnson
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 Great Idea! I love it! My dick is rock hard!

Valyssa
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I'm with AKC on this. The rules are very arbitrary, but I honestly don't think they can be reworked. The game is just too broken for this kind of category.

Allowing only SOME shift boosts, but not others is stupid IMO, but invalidating an entire run just because of 1 accidental shift boost is equally stupid.
And invalidating a run just because a CPU bumps you in the end after you boosted all your energy away, or you accidentally bump into a wall, is laughable.

I just don't think this is going to work, so my vote goes to "no"

thevorace
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Re: Proposition for new "Glitchless" Speedrun Cate
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 I created this catagory with time attack in mind, not GP.

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