Home Page
F-Zero Central Community Update (Jul.) Championships General Forum Players Photo Album
F-Zero Climax
F-Zero GP Legend
F-Zero MV
F-Zero X
F-Zero GX
F-Zero SNES
F-Zero Climax F-Zero GP Legend F-Zero MV F-Zero X F-Zero GX F-Zero SNES
Twitter Facebook YouTube Twitch
GX Rules Resources Videos Ladders Your Times Latest Times Records Forum
   « View previous topic | View next topic »  
    Index » F-Zero GX » Max Speed category rules discussion Goto page 1, 2  Next
AKC12
Black Bull
Posts: 358
View user's profile
Send private message
Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

There are a few rules that I've objected and questioned about a while back as some of you guys may already know. I'd like to discuss them for real.

Rule: Times in the GX Max Speed Ladder must be set at 100% Max Speed settings ONLY.

I vaugely remember one player quit time attacking this game because of this rule implementation way back when. I know at the time some players were setting times with Hardbanger or a machine similar to it on Sonic Oval with 0% settings (I did the same to beat the staff ghost for the first time). Settings that low should never be allowed in max speed due to the massive speed benefits of snaking with many other machines. But the same doesn't happen at higher settings. 50% is still too low because  Mad Wolf and perhaps a few other machines still gain significant speed. This number can always be debated, but 70% seems to be the point where the benefits of snaking with any machine becomes minimal at most compared to driving straight on lap 1. Whereas in boost laps there may not be any use for it at all except for lining yourself up after or before a turn or for times where you aren't boosting in places where it isn't good to MTS chain.

Some may think there's no point to using anything other than 100% settings. But certain original machines operate better at non 100% settings for non-snaking abuse play. There's Dark Schneider and Space Angler whose top speed are at their highest at non 100% settings, and improve its awful acceleration. Black Bull might be the most notable example. Lowering the settings slightly improves acceleration, which helps with his pick up speed when boosting, and increases the speed it gets from shift boosts. It also loses less speed when quick turning considerably since the drift accel stat is higher at lower settings. On any machine where their base drift accel stat (50% settings) is over 1, at 100% settings, its drift accel is 10% of the base value.The main drawback is lower top speed, which is possibly negligable considering the acceleration gains and how Black Bull wants to be MTS chaining anyways. The other drawback is deceleration is faster. How impactful that is is hard to say, but with MT exisiting it is most likely very minor.

The Thunderbolt -V2 and perhaps other A rated custom boosters could possibly see more use too, as they can achieve higher boosting speeds compared to Titan G4 at high speed courses much more quickly at slightly lower settings. And as for the non-top tier machines, machines such as Red Gazelle and other machines that lose drastic amounts of speed when quick turning will likely be be able to set better times.

We will never know these things for sure unless this rule changes. And I think it could encourage additional activity by allowing players to experiment with different settings and try out different machines/custom boosters. No other F-Zero category in any game only allows a single specific setting. And for the reasons stated above I think the GX should allow more settings for the max speed category (and perhaps the snaking category as well, but I cannot speak for the category since I don't play it).

Rule: 3. Quickturn alternations with custom machines with a body of E/D are banned, unless if it is naturally required by the track, either by a curve, or to align a certain position and angle. This rule has been done to prevent snaking with custom vehicles.

I'll be honest. I think this rule is silly and has no reason to exist anymore. While 100% snaking is faster with such custom machines, and perhaps slightly more so if settings down to 70% were allowed, there are very few circumstances where it is better to snake instead using MTS or MTS chains. But disregarding that, I don't see any issue with allowing players to snake as much as they want in this category, whether its due to a player's preference or even if it's faster at certain parts of the track.

It is certain that it will not change the MTS chain spam nature of many opening laps, which if you think about is similar to snaking input wise except there's more to it. Some players already have physical issues with MTS chaining and/or spaming side attacks for large dives. Max speed snaking is much tamer compared to 0% snaking because it is much slower. Even for me, who can't handle 0% snaking for very long, doing repeated snaking motions in max speed isn't much worse compared to chaining and SA spam.

But the biggest reason I dislike this rule is because it needlessly handicaps a subset of machines when it isn't necessary at all. Quick Star currently holds only 4 3 lap WRs when it used to hold over 10. The few advantages light customs have pales in comparison compared to heavy machines mainly due to shift boosting, side attacking and large jumps. Giving light machines the chance to snake will not significantly change the so called meta anyways.

I know that at the same time, changing such rules that have been in since nearly the beginning is perhaps a big enough reason to not mess with those rules. But the "to prevent snaking with custom vehicles" reasoning does not hold much water at all to me because MTS chaining and techniques utilizing side attacks are much more beneficial at settings closer to 100%. And I personally think restricting movement options for SOME machines instead of either all or none of them is just not a good rule to have under any circumstance. Some people dislike snaking, but there are some who also dislike MTS chaining and side attack spam. So why single snaking out for max speed play? This rule sounds like a preference that some players have, just like with how players don't side attack or don't MTS on the straights and ban D and E rated machines. Except that it would have very little impact on how players would drive if this rule was eliminated.

Some quick testing can be done to see how much benefit, if any at all, there is to max speed snaking compared to driving cleanly with no tech at all. Various settings can be tried as well. Perhaps based on those results views on the matter would change or perhaps be affirmed.

I can see how what I said can be used to argue that there is no issue with keeping the rule if it would have next to no impact at all with removing/amending it. I just simply don't see why this rule still exists unless it turns out most players just don't want to see snaking at all in the max speed category.

 

EDIT: Here is some info and data regarding the Drift Accel stat

The main stat that allows for snaking is the Drift Accel stat. It needs to be above 1.0 for snaking to be very effective.

There are machines with a drift accel stat of exactly 1. If a machine's drift accel is 1 or less, its drift accel will stay fixed at that value until 50%, then it steadily rises it reaches its peak when going below 50%.

For machines that have a base drift accel of over 1, starting at 51%, it gets reduced the higher the settings are until 100%, where the drift accel is 10% of the base (50% settings) drift accel. Mad Wolf for example, has a base drift accel of 1.9, the highest among original machines and custom boosters. It reaches its peak drift accel value of 2.3 at 23%. But at 100% it is 0.19, which makes it lose a lot of speed when snaking/quick turning

At 70% it has a drift accel of 1.216, where it will benefit from snaking in both lap 1 and likely on boost laps as well after a quick attempt.

At 75%, it's 1.045. Most likely for every other machine and custom booster, the value would be below 1 at this point. (Just tried with Red Gazelle. Its base drift accel is 1.8. At 75% it's 0.99)

At 80%, it's 0.874 for Mad Wolf.

I think if we were to select a setting, it would be a setting where the drift accel for every machine is 1.0 or less. Mad Wolf is the only machine that exceeds 1.0 at 75% and it only barely does so. But I think we need to work with multiples of 10 since it can be very easy to mess up what setting you set, while for 70%/80%/etc settings, there's an audible clicking noise that tells you you hit a multiple of 10 setting.

EDIT 2: Some videos showing snaking of some C and B rated customs and Quick Star at 100%

Silver Sword Custom machine - Ghost is non snake

Fire Wolf Custom machine

Quick Star-G4 - Ghost is non snake

EDIT 3: Snaking videos at 70%. Not representative of the full potential of snaking, just to give some idea.

Mad Wolf 70% snaking

Combat Condor 70% snaking

Combat Condor 70% no snaking

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
zewing
Golden Fox
Posts: 71
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

 I don't really see the issue here, we have 3 different playstyles whose settings influence said play style, changing this now just seems a little too late.  Adding an arbitrary lower limit to max speed would be interesting but I see no reason to change how it is, it's what we all competed in.  Something as big of a change as this would need every possible player's input on this, much more than the people who replied to the new video proof rule for fzc/mfo bests.  I'm open to at least giving it a chance but I'm still skeptical.

AKC12
Black Bull
Posts: 358
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

The 100% only setting rule was first put into place in late 2004. I don't know what the exact reasoning for that was, but what we knew of the game and the meta back then is vastly different compared to recent years. 

I think it would be a real waste if we never really get to explore non 100% settings because of some ancient rule.

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
IntenseQuote
Mr. EAD
Posts: 1
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

I haven't been playing this game for as long as many people here so I don't know as much about the history and the origins of the ladders. But I do understand that the max speed ladder was created so that it would have nothing to do with snaking and spaceflying play. 

Having that said, I still feel like the rules are pretty awkward the way they are right now. At least one of these two rules don't really hold much meaning. I'm assuming the 100% max speed rule was determined to eliminate most benefits from snaking. However it turns out E and D bodies can snake and now there is another rule that straight up bans snaking for these machines. It feels like snaking is basically being banned twice with two rules, each targeted to a separate group of machines. 

If snaking is something that is not meant to exist in this ladder, then I think the quickturn alternation rule should be extended to all machines, while increasing the leniency for speed settings. Unless there's another reason staying at 100% max speed other than not snaking, I feel like the hard limit on 100% only should be removed. This opens up new potentials by getting rid of arbitrary limits.

I also would wouldn't mind if snaking was allowed and the speed settings are limited between 70-100%, since there are so few benefits to snaking at those settings that it's basically not worth it. I'm only suggesting this because like I stated in the beginning, I don't have as much personal connection to these ladders as someone who might have been playing for a really long time. If people believe that this ladder should remain snaking-free, then I suggest we go along with allowing a range of speed settings while just banning snaking outright with all machines.

 

Hulmy
Dragon Bird
Posts: 23
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

its called max speed for a reason. not partial speed, somewhat close to max speed or really close to max speed but not quite max speed. to me, max speed = 100% settings and im sure others feel the same. even with everything you said, i still see no reason to change the rule, especially when it has been around for as long as it has. if for some reason this rule changes, i honestly wouldnt even call it max speed anymore.

the snaking in max speed is so stupid that im not even gonna bother saying anything about it. the open ladder exists for a reason, if people wanna snake at 70% settings, then by all means they can do it there.

AKC12
Black Bull
Posts: 358
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

If the non 100% settings do become allowed, I would agree the ladder/category would need to be renamed.

You do need to explain if you want your argument to count for something. While Yazzo had also suggested just posting any other times in the Open ladder, but well just think about it. A time that's faster than the current max speed WR would not be officially recognized as a WR of any kind because of the space flying times in the open ladder. It wouldn't hold the same prestige compared to it being officially the WR in the max speed (or whatever it would be renamed to) ladder. It would drastically reduce the motivation of anyone who is considering trying non 100% setting attempts.

Snaking with customs are less effective at lower settings because of the reduced top speed reduces how fast you can go. It would only be more effective at lower settings if the drift accel is well beyond 1.0. But if the lowest allowable setting prevents any machine from having a drift accel beyond 1.0, then that isn't an issue.

There are no machines with a drift accel of over 1.0 at 80% settings. That leaves just the machines that have a base drift accel of 1.0 or close to it that gains speed from quick turns at any setting.

I do believe that these rules needs to be seriously looked at because

1) The 100% setting only rule created back in October of 2004 hasn't been re-evaluted ever

2) The general attitude towards snaking may have changed, especially with the refinement of advanced tech

3) Do we really want a primary F-Zero GX category to have a significant ground movement restriction directed towards only some machines?

I understand the reasoning of not modifying these rules because of how this was simply how it was since nearly the beginning. But at this point it doesn't seem to be a completely logical reason to me. It seems to be partly emotional/subjective as well. To not screw over those players who have come and gone with setting times in this category. But to simply allow these rules that were made before the techniques were refined to remain without at least a serious discussion and possible reconsideration of such rules simply because that's just the way it's been this whole time is unwise if you ask me.

Personally, it's just too limiting and restrictive as it is currently. There's likely more potential for some machines and custom boosters. Of course that can be explored without changing anything but it'd be a lot more fun if it were officially allowed. If this category remains as is, then I think it's worth becoming new category (with snaking motions fully allowed and more allowable settings).

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
Yazzo
Staff Ghost
Posts: 651
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

Here are my thoughts:

 
On allowing snaking:
 
My main gripe with this suggestion is that as I see it, it goes against the very spirit of the max speed ladder. From what I remember, the max speed ladder was created because people didn't want to snake, spacefly or use HSSA back in the day. So with that in mind, it doesn't make much sense for me to now quite suddenly start allowing snaking in the max speed ladder.  As far as I know, it's not even really been something people have asked for over the years until AKC12 brought it up. Now, you may say that allowing snaking won't even have that big of an impact and that it would be used very sparsely, but to me there doesn't seem to be enough proof for that claim to be valid, and even if it is valid, it would still go against the forementioned spirit of the max speed ladder. Also, if you want snaking to be allowed because it's "arbitrary" not to allow it as I've heard some people say, then as I see it you'd also have to allow spaceflying and HSSA (or heck, even turbo controllers) as well since those are just as arbitrary to disallow as snaking. But as I see it, every rule is kinda arbitrary, and that's not really an argument as to why it's a bad rule. The rules are there because people wanted to compete in the game in a certain restricted way, and that's why those techs are not allowed and why we have seperate categories for this very complicated game. So personally I feel like the rules we have are good and shouldn't be changed.
 
Furthermore, there's also been a point made about MTS-chaining and how that is just as worse as snaking, and so the argument is that if that's allowed, then why not snaking as well (or any of the other techs)? But as I see it, MTS-chaining is no where close to as controversial as those other techs, and it's also been part of the max speed ladder from the very beginning (although in a more primitive state back then). While some people don't like it (and continue to not like it), I still feel like it's not on the same level at all as those other techs, and obviously a lot of people don't have a problem with using this tech for the max speed ladder as well.
 
Now, this doesn't mean that I don't think it would be interesting to see how a max speed snaking run would look like (or using any of the other banned techs for that matter). I think it could still be really cool to see how it those kind of runs would look like, and so I am not opposed to people trying it out. But I much rather see it as a side-category than anything else, and keep the max speed ladder the same as it is.
 
Finally, there's also been a related topic that's been brought up with fast-lap set-ups and if it should be allowed to do any of these techs (snaking, spaceflying, HSSA) before the fast-lap attempt begins. As I see it, this should not be allowed either for the same reasons. As a consequence, this would mean that superSANIC's recent SOSS run would not be allowed anymore since he does a couple of snaking-movements before the lap starts, which potentially may have given him an advantage. If it turns out it didn't give him any advantage though, then I wouldn't be opposed to keep the record. But that's certainly a controversial opinion, and one I can see people be against.
 
 
On allowing different settings:
 
This one I think makes more sense. It would make it so what's truly "max speed" for each ship is what's also being used in the max speed ladder. The only gripe I have against it however, is that I feel like if the difference between using these lower settings compared to 100% is so marginal, then is it really that necessary to implement it? Wouldn't it just cause further confusion about how to compete properly in the game? That's my fear at least. I think there's something quite pure in having a clear distinction between 0% and 100% that I think is pretty attractive, especially for newcomers. So right now I'm leaning towards not thinking it's a good rule-change for this reason. I also think though that this stuff is interesting, so seeing runs with it could still be cool just like with using other techs. But again, I think I'd rather see it be part of a side-category in that case.
 
If we want to keep the 100% rule though, and the difference is so marginal in comparison to using lower settings, then the question arises if we can even tell if people are using these different settings? Perhaps it's impossible, I'm not sure. And maybe people are already using them right now even? I think that's something worth thinking about as well.
Mandalore
Jet Vermilion
Posts: 643
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

 The Max Speed ladders entire purpose is to give people an alternative to snaking. Suddenly allowing it would undermine 14 years worth of competition.

I remember the 100% only rule being introduced when it was found some custom ship could snake at 70% on CPSO. I haven't really seen a convincing argument to overturn that. The original post mentions machines like Dark Schneider and Mad Wolf, are either of those realistically going to be competing for records at any engine setting? 

1davidj
Staff Ghost
Posts: 2
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

I agree with Intensequote's point about the double snaking ban - regardless of whether or not we continue to disallow snaking, the snaking motion ban covers the concern raised by using settings lower than 100% and so 70% seems to be a good breakpoint to allow down to. If the only argument against going down to 70% is the single shitty-ass Mad Wolf default vehicle then that's really not a concern because even at 0% I'm guessing it still couldn't come close to competing with any max speed records, so going all the way down to 70% instead of to 80% should be fine. Personally my experience with settings other than 100% or 0% is very low because I basically had zero experience with GX before starting to TA it, but the experience I've had using 80% with black bull has found it to be much easier to control and generally more forgiving to use. Regardless of whether or not it's optimal in any case to use it at 80% or 70% settings, it's a new option for gameplay that doesn't go against the style that the max speed ladder tries to create by banning snaking.

Regarding banning the snaking motions, I don't have a problem with them staying banned since the uses are so rare anyway, but on the other hand since the uses are so rare it would be interesting to allow it just to see where it could be used. If it turns out that MT boost snaking (which is so hard to do that even the top snaking players don't attempt it despite it I'm sure being faster than nonMT) is faster than MT boost driving straight on boost laps then I definitely don't want it to be allowed, but if it's tested for that not to be the case (which I'm assuming it isn't since the only testing I've seen on the matter is on openers non-boosting), then I really don't have any objection to allowing it and I'd be happy to use it myself. 

I guess ultimately it just seems like it would be fun to allow settings other than 100% because options are fun and interesting, and if there's no harm or degredation of the category's playstyle, what's the concern? I'm sure most PBs will continue to be set at 100% anyway. The snaking motion ban removal should absolutely await more complete testing before really being discussed much further because at this point we're mostly taking shots in the dark as to how much it would affect the category.

AKC12
Black Bull
Posts: 358
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

 But as I see it, MTS-chaining is no where close to as controversial as those other techs, and it's also been part of the max speed ladder from the very beginning (although in a more primitive state back then).

I don't know how it exactly went down, but some japanese players outright restricted themselves from using certain custom bodies, side attacks and did not allow themselves to MTS on a straight. I'm not sure if they had their own ladder at the time with such rules too. Sounds like it was very controversial to them.

I attempted snaking in MCSO with Quick Star but I'm not much of a snaker so I didn't find out much other than it was slightly easier to exceed 1900 kmh. It's likely better to try it out with Strike Star/Cannon -G4 regardless.

Assuming snaking is allowed, 70% is a no no because of Mad Wolf and possibly custom machines with particular custom boosters.

I remember the 100% only rule being introduced when it was found some custom ship could snake at 70% on CPSO. I haven't really seen a convincing argument to overturn that. The original post mentions machines like Dark Schneider and Mad Wolf, are either of those realistically going to be competing for records at any engine setting? 

I mentioned in the opening post the 'science' behind the circumstances that makes a machine benefit greatly from snaking. Most likely the custom machine used had a booster (guessing Euros -01) where at 70%, its drift accel is high enough that it benefits a lot from snaking. You won't see anything worse than what can be done at 100% if the setting limit were at 75% or 80% because no machine's drift accel will exceed 1.0 at such settings (except for Mad Wolf, with a 1.048 at 75% settings).

More testing needs to be done to really see how impactful snaking could be. I'll reserve any judgements until then.

But to not put the rule to not allow snaking in writing until recently is really making me question whether the purpose of the ladder was to restrict snaking or to limit the effectiveness of snaking. The two statements are very different and I am not convinced that it's one or the other yet after browsing through the MFO archives. Unless you or someone clearly remembers this, we're making assumptions on the initial purpose of the ladder.

Those machines may not be going for records, but there's a decent amount of players that set times using the non top tier machines. There is a spreadsheet with a video for every possible original machine/course combination that follow the max speed rules. I know times set on that spreadsheet aren't bound to any of the rules here but it will likely continue to follow those rules.

EDIT:

If we want to keep the 100% rule though, and the difference is so marginal in comparison to using lower settings, then the question arises if we can even tell if people are using these different settings? Perhaps it's impossible, I'm not sure. And maybe people are already using them right now even? I think that's something worth thinking about as well.

At the very least a we would need a video of the run to look at. If the run starts with little steering and no tech, then the acceleration can be looked at. But it would likely be hard to tell if it's just a few percent below 100%. 

If the replay file is provided then I believe it can easily be found out using Cheat Engine.

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
Yazzo
Staff Ghost
Posts: 651
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post
 AKC12 wrote:

I don't know how it exactly went down, but some japanese players outright restricted themselves from using certain custom bodies, side attacks and did not allow themselves to MTS on a straight. I'm not sure if they had their own ladder at the time with such rules too. Sounds like it was very controversial to them.

Yeah, it's true the Japanese players were hesitant against some of these techs or custom bodies. Especially muumu who famously mentioned their reasons on their website (though muumu wasn't completely against using them either it seemed as there was a hint indicating they may use them in the future). That's probably a big reason why some people still don't like using these techs or custom parts to this day as muumu was highly respected by us all by being an incredible player, and what muumu thought about things really mattered to some.

I think Sugi might have had a ladder for GX on his site back in the day, but I'm not sure. However, I think it's worth mentioning that most if not all Japanese players still submitted their times to FZC/MFO, which I think indicates they weren't as upset about these techs or custom bodies being allowed as one might think. And what's also clear is that a lot of the western players were not against using these techs and custom parts. So my main point was just that these things weren't as controversial as Snaking/Spaceflying/HSSA. A lot of people were really tired of having to use these specific techs back then as they felt it changed the game completely, and they wanted to play it in a different and less abusing way. Again, it's why these ladders were created in the first place. By just looking at how much more popular the Max Speed ladder is in comparison to the other ones, it makes it pretty clear that the need was there.

AKC12 wrote:

But to not put the rule to not allow snaking in writing until recently is really making me question whether the purpose of the ladder was to restrict snaking or to limit the effectiveness of snaking. The two statements are very different and I am not convinced that it's one or the other yet after browsing through the MFO archives. Unless you or someone clearly remembers this, we're making assumptions on the initial purpose of the ladder.

 
I'm pretty sure the Max Speed ladder was created because people did not want to snake among other things as I've mentioned already. I think what proves this to be the case is that, at least to my knowledge, no one really brought up the possibility of snaking in the Max Speed ladder until you did. I do agree though that the rules don't really make clear of this, so that probably could be adressed with a couple of minor changes.
 
AKC12 wrote:

At the very least a we would need a video of the run to look at. If the run starts with little steering and no tech, then the acceleration can be looked at. But it would likely be hard to tell if it's just a few percent below 100%. 

If the replay file is provided then I believe it can easily be found out using Cheat Engine.

 
I would kinda hate if a WR had to be disallowed because it used a few percents less than 100%. It seems like such an unimportant difference, but if we wanted to stay consistent with the rules, then we would have to look for that I guess. So I think this would be a reason for allowing lower settings, just to not have to deal with that kind of hypothetical situation. I still think though there's something valuable in recommending people to use 100% as they are introduced to the competition. It just makes it less confusing IMO, especially if the difference is so marginal.
AKC12
Black Bull
Posts: 358
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

Thinking about how in my GX Unleashed mod, lower settings for the max speed type play seems to be faster in certain courses is making me think that Fat Shark at less than 100% settings is likely to be more optimal than 100% settings in at least a few courses and certainly warrents investigation. At 80%, Fat Shark's top speed is 1104, just 5 kmh below its 100% top speed. Meaning that Fat Shark at lower settings will accelerate more quickly, and it may not lose much speed when it boosts compared to 100%. And it may be beneficial as well with regards to shift boosting.

If it does turn out that without question lower than 100% Fat Shark is optimal in at least a few courses, well I think that may change the complexion of this discussion. Classic WRs being possibly overtaken because of a rule change I suppose would leave somewhat of a sour taste if a different player overtakes their hard earned WR using a non 100% setting. In my opinion, the 100% setting restriction rule was a mistake in hindsight for the ones who decided that rule, but if it turns out my prediction is true, then it would certainly undermine the achievements that the top players have done in this category.

I still think us players should look into time attacking with non-100% settings, but if Fat Shark is indeed better at settings below 100% in some courses, then I feel the Max Speed ladder should leave the setting restriction rule alone and that it should be its own category. Then perhaps one day if there's still enough activity and there are faster times set with sub 100% settings it could possibly be the main 'max speed' type ladder.

Do others agree with this assessment if what I said about sub 100% Fat Shark is true?

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
superSANIC
Blue Falcon
Posts: 43
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

Here's some data, I hope you can make some sense from it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vUjRgMw_uXT2qNCbun5Sy2KZ7f8Z-F1XDnS45X0RC8k/edit#gid=2014539136

Basically machines with a drift accel of 1 or lower seemingly snake best at 100% (if you rule out %'s below 50) since turn deceleration lowers alongside acceleration.
And, Gallant benefits from snaking at high enough speeds.

Snaking ban is stupid because the mechanic is so deeply embedded into the physics that unless you ban quickturns you can't avoid benefiting from it.
Don't care for lowering settings as playing at maxspeed is already a restriction. The slightly better performance isn't worth the consequences.

AKC12
Black Bull
Posts: 358
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

Looking ahead a bit, how do we come to a consensus on what to decide? There's no established group that decides on this kind of matter. I feel last time when the snaking rule was put into place the points myself and superSANIC brought up were largely ignored and not addressed by those were were in favor of the snaking rules.

Most likely everyone who has already decided on a side are unlikely to switch over with regards to snaking. Do we do a vote then? Who would be allowed to vote?

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
Sam-well
Blue Falcon
Posts: 35
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

 What it does is that it gives players the opportunity to experiment and fine-tune different settings and ships within a spectrum, slightly altering a variety of factors such as acceleration and ship agility. A similar thing was done in X's jumper category, where they set the range within four ticks of max speed. I imagine they determined at which point a slider strat was no longer beneficial over jumper, and set it there. GX of course is a different ball game, with different physics and custom ships. AKC12 is making the assessment that in a 70-100% range, any opportunity for snaking benefit will be minimal.

 
My preferred way of playing F-Zero is holding the best racing line possible and using/mastering techniques to get through bends and airtime as optimally as I can. So not spamming any turning technique on straights or breaking the physics. X's jumper category allows you to compete in a ladder that way (no air to ground glitch), but GX doesn't due to MTS chaining. You could argue it's the way a racing game is meant to be played, but that's up for debate. People are always going to be pushing the envelope and that's cool. But it doesn't hurt to have options.
 
I don't compete in ladders, so my opinion doesn't really matter. Just thought I'd chime in as a player and fan.
Yazzo
Staff Ghost
Posts: 651
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

superSANIC: I feel like there's a pretty significant difference between doing quickturns and snaking though. Personally I think the rule we have on not being able to alternate quickturns unless the track requires it is a good one that has served us well, and as I see it it just needs to be extended for all type of machines.

AKC12: Well, my opinion at least is that there needs to be a lot more people who want to change what's allowed for there to be even a chance to see it happen. Right now it feels like it's only you who are pushing for it really hard, and with some support from others -- though it seems like a lot of them are also fine with keeping the ladder as it is. Also it's not even super clear that you'd benefit anything from snaking, or judging from your previous post, if there's even anything beneficial from having lower settings for the best ships apparently, which makes the argument less convincing. So all of this makes it so at least I'm not comfortable with agreeing on having these changes done. But again, if people want to compete this way, then why not just make it a side-category to begin with? That's far less controversial, and seems to be a good compromise between those who are eager to play with these techs and settings, and those who would like to see the ladder stay the same.

I do think though this discussion brought up the fact that the ruleset could be made more clear on what is and what isn't allowed, and that's something I'd like to see done personally.

Evil_Superstar: I get what you're saying, but this game is so complicated (or "broken" if you will) and has so many different techs that are all controversial in various degrees. There's Snaking, Spaceflying, HSSA, Side Attacks, Shift Boosts and also MTS-chaining among others (that are less controversial). Also some don't like using certain custom vehicles, and heck, some don't even like using custom vehicles whatsoever. As I see it, we can't please everyone, and if we did, I believe the competition would suffer as a consequence as records would not be as valuable anymore to people. So in my opinion, the way we have it done in GX with 3 main categories that are all significantly different from each-other is the best we can do.

Allowing MTS-chaining in the Max Speed ladder is indeed a bit controversial by some (especially if done by Quick Star), but I think it helps a great deal to accept that it's allowed by recognizing that it's not the fastest way of driving for all of the tracks, and you could even make an argument that that's a strength for the category (often in racing games, there's just 1 OP vehicle and/or tech to use to set the fastest times). In any case, I don't believe MTS-chaining is controversial enough for it to have its own seperate ladder. But nothing stops anyone from not doing them and keeping track of those times, either on the ladder or on the side. Just like people have done with other controversial techs or custom vehicles in the past.

Sam-well
Blue Falcon
Posts: 35
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

@Yazzo I agree its not wise to stretch competition over too many subcategories, which can be a challenge with a complex game like GX and many different opinions/ demands. In any case, the fact that the max speed ladder is apparently more popular than the other two, is to me an indication that players are more interested in "pure racing" over physics abuse. I'll leave the stance on MTS chaining to the players competing.

@AKC12 Is a poll thread a possibility at measuring support for your proposition? If so, make sure it has enough options available, like "yes" (in favor), "no", "make it sub-category", "undecided".
AKC12
Black Bull
Posts: 358
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

 @Evil_SuperStar: For such a serious matter I would probably need to make a new topic that lays out the arguments of both sides so anyone who votes are informed of the reasoning of both sides.

Also I think a decision needs made regarding superSANIC's SOSS fast lap run under the current rules sometime soon.

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
superSANIC
Blue Falcon
Posts: 43
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

Noticed something last night with AfterDawn's MCSO fastlap (F-ZERO GX – MCSO 7"665 FLap 【WR】). He does a bunch of tiny quickturns to get around the final corner before starting the lap. I believe he gained a slight advantage by doing so, as I wasn't able to replicate his entrance speed with more "normal" quickturns (I was only able to get about 2060 vs his 2119). Of course my MT boosting just could've been off, but judging by his previous lap record where he does more standard turning, it seems likely it was intentional. So if I'm right, he's abusing quickturns to gain an advantage, but it's ok since he doesn't have to switch directions. It's because of stuff like this that I find the snaking rule dumb. Basically what I'm reading from the rule is that it's ok to exploit snaking, just dont actually ~snake~. To me this just seems artbitrary, which is why I ignored the rule during my SOSS flap attempts.

AKC12
Black Bull
Posts: 358
View user's profile
Send private message
Re: Max Speed category rules discussion
Reply to this Post

It might have looked like he hit the edge of the boost plate in the middle of the turn. It's hard to tell based on sound alone. But yeah you can abuse quick turning to achieve boosting speeds that would be very difficult or even impossible to achieve without quick turning. I'd be lying if I say I never intentionally did extra unneeded quick turns to gain some extra speed. I mean I kinda got used to it from using Fat Shark all of these years, and it grants an extra level of stable control over your machine on top of that compared to larger quick turns and other types of turning, so there are other reasons to do that other than gaining more speed.

I'll be stating the obvious, but snaking is chaining of the very basic quick turn. I don't think not allowing snaking simply because people dislike snaking is a valid reason. There are usually tech that can be physically taxing to do in this and other games. This category has button mashing for side attacks, and there's quite a bit of control stick swerving at a lesser level with MTS chaining. And it is well noted that a number of people dislike those aspects of this game as well. It just seems to me that because snaking was such a major point of contention ever since like day 2 after the game was released that allowing snaking for this category is a much bigger deal than it should be even to this day 14 years later.

All of my GX times with various machines: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12c92zTykQvGwPoCU6yGuOb7lwxFENUC9ELbHZcse1qE/
   Index » F-Zero GX » Max Speed category rules discussion Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Display posts from previous: